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Old 08-18-2017, 09:27 AM
 
Location: NC
11,222 posts, read 8,303,040 times
Reputation: 12469

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
More globalist propaganda. And what are these coal miners to be "retrained" to be: semiconductor physicists, protein chemists, personal injury lawyers?


The new democrat "better deal" mantra (“A Better Deal: Better Jobs, Better Wages, Better Future”) is equivalent to putting lipstick on a pig. It is just the repackaging of throwing more money at the educational establishment for "retraining."
In WV, how about if we retrain them to be oil workers on the Frack? The USA has proven to be competitive there, and it is 100% on the backs of hardworking people AND improved productivity via technology.

Hell, some of them can continue to mine coal as long as there is demand, but the demand will remain a lot longer if we use as much technology and automation to keep prices low, and therefore remain competitive versus other technologies (like O&G, Solar, Wind, etc...).

Think for yourself, globalism is happening, whether it's a conspiracy or not. If you believe in Adam Smith's free-market economics (invisible hand and all that), surely you have to understand this.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:36 AM
 
5,301 posts, read 6,181,559 times
Reputation: 5492
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCbaxter View Post
What then is your positive spin on how to address the labor shortage for skilled workers?
Learning by osmosis?

The USA as a whole is not "Lake Wobegone: where all of the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average:" - Garrison Keillor.


The elitists demand that all basic industries like coal mining, furniture, textile, garment, shoe, leather, toy, auto parts, manual assembly, basic steel, copper and brass manufacturing be "offshored" in order to bring more to the bottom line.


The truth is that America is getting dumber and there are huge numbers of people who lack the brains and/or drive for a high end technical career. And what is wrong with making furniture? It's an honest trade.


//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...-colleges.html
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:36 AM
 
Location: In the reddest part of the bluest state
5,752 posts, read 2,781,845 times
Reputation: 4925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
That's my brother-in-law to a tee. Smart guy, but without much book learning.

He's employed by a small Danish company, and they have completely dropped competing with China on large-scale manufacturing. (Think US wages are high? Try Denmark.) No way they can even try. However, they excel at small-batch or even single items made with fine tolerances, advanced materials and at short notice. (Priced accordingly, of course.) Prototypes, complex replacement parts for heavy machinery, some aerospace stuff (not much, the materials tracking is cumbersome), testing equipment etc.

Business is good, but - it's a niche. When the Vestas wind turbine company is happy with the prototype gearbox, they send it off to be mass produced in Poland or even China.
That is globalization in a nutshell. Let's start the discussion by admitting global economies exist, are not going away, and will continue developing whether or not the USA participates in them.
Then we have to determine where our place in that is. Unfortunately for some that place is no longer churning out 15 million washing machines a year on an assembly line in Amana Iowa with HS educated workers.
So what is our place? How can we take what the marketplace is providing us and maximize that? Is it R&D?
For sure. Is it like Dane says, design and development of highly engineered parts that are then manufactured somewhere else? Is it medical research? Scientific breakthroughs? Who knows, but whatever it is we need to pull our heads out of our a$$es and get moving in that direction because nature hates a vacuum and so do marketplaces. Every day we sit around trying to figure out how to get 19th century jobs back is a day we miss out.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:45 AM
 
Location: In the reddest part of the bluest state
5,752 posts, read 2,781,845 times
Reputation: 4925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
The USA as a whole is not "Lake Wobegone: where all of the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average:" - Garrison Keillor.


The elitists demand that all basic industries like coal mining, furniture, textile, garment, shoe, leather, toy, auto parts, manual assembly, basic steel, copper and brass manufacturing be "offshored" in order to bring more to the bottom line.


The truth is that America is getting dumber and there are huge numbers of people who lack the brains an/or drive for a high end technical career. And what is wrong with making furniture? It's an honest trade.


//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...-colleges.html
These are not elitists, just stop. They are capitalists. Their job is to make money, yes? I have posted before about shareholder primacy but of course the right wing poo poos that.

So to your point, there is nothing wrong with making furniture, but if I can pay a guy in the USA 20 an hour, and I can pay a guy in Guatemala 5 an hour, what will I do?

That's not global elitism or some huge government/corporate conspiracy, its just business. I just don't know what some of you people think business is, but I will tell you it's a cold, heartless spreadsheet that tells you where you are winning and where you are losing, how you respond to that determines if you make it or not.
There is no social agenda
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:56 AM
 
5,301 posts, read 6,181,559 times
Reputation: 5492
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCbaxter View Post
So what is our place? How can we take what the marketplace is providing us and maximize that? Is it R&D?
For sure. Is it like Dane says, design and development of highly engineered parts that are then manufactured somewhere else? Is it medical research? Scientific breakthroughs? Who knows, but whatever it is we need to pull our heads out of our a$$es and get moving in that direction because nature hates a vacuum and so do marketplaces. Every day we sit around trying to figure out how to get 19th century jobs back is a day we miss out.

The honest truth is that the USA has lost so many large industrial companies (like RCA, Westinghouse, Pullman Standard, etc.) that employed engineers, the job opportunities in that field have shrunk.


MIT: With Loss Of Manufacturing The U.S. Innovation Engine Is No Longer Working
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Old 08-18-2017, 10:41 AM
 
Location: In the reddest part of the bluest state
5,752 posts, read 2,781,845 times
Reputation: 4925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
The honest truth is that the USA has lost so many large industrial companies (like RCA, Westinghouse, Pullman Standard, etc.) that employed engineers, the job opportunities in that field have shrunk.


MIT: With Loss Of Manufacturing The U.S. Innovation Engine Is No Longer Working

Nice article, thanks for posting. I wish he would have explained a bit about the mechanism of how the manufacturing environment feeds back in to R&D.
I also wonder how they figure in that automation has actually cost more jobs than outsourcing.
Things are still getting made, just not by humans,
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Old 08-18-2017, 10:48 AM
 
13,711 posts, read 9,233,267 times
Reputation: 9845
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Sorry, but telling coal workers that they will keep their jobs is just flat-out irresponsible. IF we want coal-workers, or any manufacturing workers to keep their job, we'll need to train them to be competitive, and to leverage current technology.

The article specifies that traditional 4-year degrees is not what is needed, but it carefully documents the labor shortage (yes, SHORTAGE) and what types of continuing education are needed to address it.

The jobs are there, they are high-paying, and America can compete. But we need our leaders to stop promising that they can bring back 1970's jobs and remain competitive. People need to adapt, and the jobs are there.

Retraining workers was Hillary's plan and many parts of this country stuck middle fingers to her. They will NEVER buy into this job retraining "liberal conspiracy". They want to do the same job and get paid the same wage their parents did. They don't want to learn new skill and their culture believes education is bad to begin with.

Obama have been telling these people that we have a LABOR SHORTAGE. Lots and lots of jobs sat unfilled because employers couldn't find qualified workers to fill them. The Democrats have been trying to get this message out - get the right skill and you will get a better job with higher pay. The Right basically said, "F off!"

.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:50 AM
 
3,992 posts, read 2,458,665 times
Reputation: 2350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wells5 View Post
More globalist propaganda. And what are these coal miners to be "retrained" to be: semiconductor physicists, protein chemists, personal injury lawyers?


The new democrat "better deal" mantra (“A Better Deal: Better Jobs, Better Wages, Better Future”) is equivalent to putting lipstick on a pig. It is just the repackaging of throwing more money at the educational establishment for "retraining."


so what is your answer? pretend automation doesn't exist? Go back to steam power? You can sit in your little safe space and pretend the modern world doesn't exist and that Daddy Trump can make the bad people go away and ensure a guy with no skills can walk into a plant and make 80K for life, or you can accept reality....
it's amazing the people that love the free market and cry its an over-reach when the government looks to try to provide healthcare for people somehow want the government to step in to ensure their supposed birthright to a high paying job with no skill.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:54 AM
 
Location: USA
31,046 posts, read 22,077,427 times
Reputation: 19085
Quote:
Originally Posted by tb4000 View Post
Exactly, you can't keep doing the **** you were doing 3 decades ago and expect it to fly now. My own dad was a steel mill worker and while the places are still active a lot of that stuff is automated now. Have these dudes take classes on technology so they can keep said jobs.
Doesn't help when the Chinese government subsidizes steel to the point that no one can compete against them.

I agree, our Industries should be training workers to be competitive. Our .com busnesses should also be training American workers instead of importing h1b workers.
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Old 08-18-2017, 12:06 PM
 
29,486 posts, read 14,650,004 times
Reputation: 14449
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
Doesn't help when the Chinese government subsidizes steel to the point that no one can compete against them.

Steel isn't the only think the Chinese government subsidizes. I ran into our tooling follow up guy the other day, he basically follows the designs we make over to China , follows the build and then follows the tools after they are built to the manufacturing plants. He said over there the tool shops are gigantic, all state of the art and everything is done in house. These huge plants all got their start from government subsidies.


Now that US companies have refined their processes, and the Chinese companies encounter higher production costs the gap is getting closer. Time is the issue now. Especially in automotive when the OEMS's are trying to get down to an 24 month or less design cycle. It takes time to ship those tools across the pond.


The shame of it all is we pretty much gave away a 26 billion dollar a year industry.


Mould and Die Industry Report China And Global Region 2013-2015 Industry Shares, Size, Trend,
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