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Old 09-25-2017, 02:41 PM
 
13,944 posts, read 5,615,884 times
Reputation: 8603

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
It isnt a matter of voting in the right people. It's a matter of NOT supporting people after they show themselves to not be the right people.

Why do people refuse to do this? Far too many put their partisan politics over the needs of the people.
Elected people don't run any of the stuff that is messed up...that is the basic fact you and the other "yay, MOAR government now!!" people don't understand.

A horde of faceless bureaucrats a few million bodies deep runs these programs. They are entrenched, cannot be fired even if you could figure out who is who, and they exist to launder and funnel money between deep pocketed corporations and their elected lord and lady patrons. This is why every...single...time, socialism fails. The faceless horde is given unaccountable and anonymous power, rather vast amounts of it, and they misuse that power to their own ends and those of their wealthy and powerful patrons.

You see it across time and geography, small village to whole nation, doesn't matter. And Democrats and Republicans both play for the same wealthy patron team, no matter what theatrics they present to you in public. When Obama was POTUS, it was a big deal to examine the Koch Brothers and see how much tax they were paying, but nobody seemed to care about GE "restructuring" their way to $0 in taxes because Obama and GE's CEO are homeyz. When Romney was pushing Romneycare in MA, he was flying around on a Pfizer jet...on their dime. The Kennedy's are bootlegger mafia and the Bush family got rich doing bidness with Hitler's Nazi party. Etc etc etc. It's a shell game, a racket, a con, a scam. All of it.

Adding healthcare to it, by law, just adds one more area of your life they can control with more faceless thugs with all the power of law making, adjudication and enforcement on their side, as well as a monopoly on force and violence. You are asking for them to add that power and unaccountability to your healthcare, and you are calling me and anyone else opposed to it idiots because we don't share your dreams of enslaving one more area of your life to the Bureaucratic Mafia? Really?

It cannot be done right because power always corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Always, everywhere, without fail. This is why it is always 100% wrong to grant anyone with power even more of it. When did healthcare prices start going crazy? Try 1965 because that was the first year of Medicare and the government "helping" people with healthcare. Add in Medicaid, SCHIP, and few dozen other programs, and all of a sudden, just the government in healthcare is like 30 agencies, double and triple redundancy, waste, fraud and abuse. But oh, you think Dubyah is to blame, or Trump, or some other elected Republican who was a teenager at best when this mess got cranked up by BOTH PARTIES.

We gave them more power in 1919. We did it again in 1932-35. And again in 1965-68. And again, and again, and again. And every single time, they have abused that power, been more corrupted by it, and failed to do even an iota of what is right. And your answer (and that of so many others, not to single you out) is to give them more power because this time, gosh darn it, you'll all see!

Pattern recognition suggests that you and anyone else thinking government will do good with more power are, to put it mildly, stoned out of your minds and in need of a huge dose of reality.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,655,217 times
Reputation: 7608
Single payer is cool - I'd much rather someone else worry about the money.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:09 PM
 
12,772 posts, read 7,972,696 times
Reputation: 4332
No
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:30 PM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Elected people don't run any of the stuff that is messed up...that is the basic fact you and the other "yay, MOAR government now!!" people don't understand.

A horde of faceless bureaucrats a few million bodies deep runs these programs. They are entrenched, cannot be fired even if you could figure out who is who, and they exist to launder and funnel money between deep pocketed corporations and their elected lord and lady patrons. This is why every...single...time, socialism fails. The faceless horde is given unaccountable and anonymous power, rather vast amounts of it, and they misuse that power to their own ends and those of their wealthy and powerful patrons.

You see it across time and geography, small village to whole nation, doesn't matter. And Democrats and Republicans both play for the same wealthy patron team, no matter what theatrics they present to you in public. When Obama was POTUS, it was a big deal to examine the Koch Brothers and see how much tax they were paying, but nobody seemed to care about GE "restructuring" their way to $0 in taxes because Obama and GE's CEO are homeyz. When Romney was pushing Romneycare in MA, he was flying around on a Pfizer jet...on their dime. The Kennedy's are bootlegger mafia and the Bush family got rich doing bidness with Hitler's Nazi party. Etc etc etc. It's a shell game, a racket, a con, a scam. All of it.

Adding healthcare to it, by law, just adds one more area of your life they can control with more faceless thugs with all the power of law making, adjudication and enforcement on their side, as well as a monopoly on force and violence. You are asking for them to add that power and unaccountability to your healthcare, and you are calling me and anyone else opposed to it idiots because we don't share your dreams of enslaving one more area of your life to the Bureaucratic Mafia? Really?

It cannot be done right because power always corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Always, everywhere, without fail. This is why it is always 100% wrong to grant anyone with power even more of it. When did healthcare prices start going crazy? Try 1965 because that was the first year of Medicare and the government "helping" people with healthcare. Add in Medicaid, SCHIP, and few dozen other programs, and all of a sudden, just the government in healthcare is like 30 agencies, double and triple redundancy, waste, fraud and abuse. But oh, you think Dubyah is to blame, or Trump, or some other elected Republican who was a teenager at best when this mess got cranked up by BOTH PARTIES.

We gave them more power in 1919. We did it again in 1932-35. And again in 1965-68. And again, and again, and again. And every single time, they have abused that power, been more corrupted by it, and failed to do even an iota of what is right. And your answer (and that of so many others, not to single you out) is to give them more power because this time, gosh darn it, you'll all see!

Pattern recognition suggests that you and anyone else thinking government will do good with more power are, to put it mildly, stoned out of your minds and in need of a huge dose of reality.
They can be fired. All that writing and it comes down to "they can be fired".
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:22 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,555 posts, read 17,256,908 times
Reputation: 37268
Quote:
Originally Posted by BicoastalAnn View Post
Medicare also has private partnerships for private plans too. I personally am a bigger fan of these than straight gov't-managed Medicare.
Straight government provided healthcare is how the VA works. In the VA, everyone works for the government. There are 377,000 employees of the VA.

Government managed healthcare is very different. That's what Medicare is. If doctors work for Medicare, it is as advisors and so forth.

Single Payer is managed government health care. Single Payer operates with only one insurance company - maybe the government, maybe a Government Sponsored Entity GSE (like Fannie Mae), or maybe even a private company.
The government does not pay your health care premium with single payer; you do. Actually, if it ever comes about I would look for the government to take the premium out of your paycheck.
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Canada
7,676 posts, read 5,521,274 times
Reputation: 8817
I don't think it is realistic for a single payor system to be administered by your federal government. Your population is too big.

Even here in Canada with a much smaller population, each province administers its own health care plan with funding provided by both the federal and provincial governments. The federal government just sets guidelines. The Canada Health Act stipulates what must be covered in the provincial plans and provinces are free to add to it if they want. So there are some differences in the the provincial plans. For example, my province covers oral cancer drugs. Some other provinces do not.

Some provinces charge residents premiums directly. Others, like the province I am living in now, does not i.e. buried in provincial taxes.

Our hospitals are all non-profit, even the many privately-owned hospitals. The board of directors of each hospital presumably presents their proposed budget to the provincial government each year for consideration. Hospitals receive funding from the provincial government and also from private donations.

I do wonder how the current for-profit privately-owned hospitals in the U.S. would be handled with a switch to a single payer system. I’m too young to remember how that sticky situation was handled back in the 1960s in Canada.
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:23 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,555 posts, read 17,256,908 times
Reputation: 37268
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I want a medical payment system where if I get sick I walk into my Doctor's office or the Emergency Room and present a Health Care Card and then get treated just like any other patient. Beyond that the details do not much matter so long as I do not have to pay the bill. This should apply to everyone. .......
Why shouldn't you have to pay the bill?
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Old 09-25-2017, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,949 posts, read 17,851,639 times
Reputation: 10371
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
I want a medical payment system where if I get sick I walk into my Doctor's office or the Emergency Room and present a Health Care Card and then get treated just like any other patient. Beyond that the details do not much matter so long as I do not have to pay the bill. This should apply to everyone.


I have made several suggestions just to see the response but from my point of view what I said in the first paragraph is the desired results.
What you just suggested is quality doesn't matter. Anytime you take price out of the equation you lower quality. There is less incentive to keep costs down.
You've also created artificial demand which means there will be less doctors per patient.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,471,329 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
We still need safe pharmaceuticals. The government needs to be involved to protect the public (and by the way, issue patents).

The idea that government intervention is the cause of high prices is a red herring. Greed causes high prices.
so a drug, prescribed in Germany(substitute any country), by Germany doctors, approved in the EU, is good enough for the EU, but the FDA says no....is that a correct thing to do....NO.....but it happens all the time


the FDA (our GOVERNMENT) is a big culprit in this mess....and you want more government care....I suggest you really think about it
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:54 PM
 
2,333 posts, read 1,487,836 times
Reputation: 922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Straight government provided healthcare is how the VA works. In the VA, everyone works for the government. There are 377,000 employees of the VA.

Government managed healthcare is very different. That's what Medicare is. If doctors work for Medicare, it is as advisors and so forth.

Single Payer is managed government health care. Single Payer operates with only one insurance company - maybe the government, maybe a Government Sponsored Entity GSE (like Fannie Mae), or maybe even a private company.
The government does not pay your health care premium with single payer; you do. Actually, if it ever comes about I would look for the government to take the premium out of your paycheck.
What does the VA have to do with my comment? I actually said "government managed healthcare" as a reference to Medicare....

I would not want an entirely government-run single payer system. I would hope it can work like Medicare, where some private insurance companies can provide competition and additional value.
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