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ANY system - no matter what the political label - that allows too much power and wealth to be concentrated in the hands of a few is at risk. Inherently unstable. And to use your words, an unstable system cannot be "sustained permanently."
No argument that there are strong "cultural mindsets" and that your - Many of us would be miserable just existing when we know that there are opportunities to create and invent - is not atypical of an American mindset. And one of this country's strengths. Read histories of foreign interactions with Americans - and you see that theme repeatedly.
But I cannot disagree more strongly that a democratic socialist system removes "incentive." Sure, maybe incentive to amass a certain amount of personal assets. And arguably to become an entrepreneur. Maybe even reduce overall GNP. But "incentive" to live well? No way.
As for the countries you mention? Russia is a bloody disaster. Today. During Communism. Under the Czars. Kill off those who are educated or totally suppress a substantial portion of your population - and you'll cripple a country for generations. Oil or no oil.
China is far more interesting. My daughter was born in China (adopted). I was there in 1988, 1992 ( Xinjiang province, taking buses with traders - Uyghurs, Tatars), 1997, and 2005. Then worked with Chinese professionally. To see how that country transformed itself - wow.
Politically? Communism didn't go down in flames. Rather, the Chinese - known for a practicality and hard work ethic comparable in some way to the Norwegians - adjusted what did not work with this now odd intermixture of functional economics and continued state control. Confucianism instilled a value for learning that survived the worst-excesses of the Mao-period and the cultural revolution.
What are WE doing today? Instead of focusing on the latest health care failure moving on to some productive decision-making process, we've instead jumped to the NFL.
Agreed. But I believe that the power being concentrated to the hands of the government is an unstable system. You seem to believe that power is unstable in the hands of job creators.
Job creators have far less power than the government. The market controls companies. If they fail to provide benefits to employees that keep up with the current market then employees leave for something better. If they fail to provide a product or service that a consumer (us) is willing to pay for, then they close their doors. They can fail. As consumers we can choose not to support those companies and force them out of business. The government will not. It will take every last penny that it can from you in return for a false sense of security. We cannot fire the government as a whole.
Incentive plays a part in our daily lives and almost everything we do. Every choice we make is because there is some incentive behind it.
Why do we work? To have the house we want, the cars we want, provide for our children, prepare for their college, their future, etc... We have almost unlimited choices. We know the amount of money that is required to live the lifestyle that we choose and that makes us happy. That is incentive. We are working towards a goal.
In socialism, the goal posts are lowered so that the goal is the same for everyone. No matter how hard you work, you can only achieve so much. The next guy can achieve similar results as you by working half as hard. So in turn, everyone eventually does the bare minimum to get by because there is no incentive to do more. So in reality, those in socialism aren't living well... they're all just living. And since there is no incentives and no reason to reach a higher goal. There is not happiness in that. Maybe a false sense of perceived happiness when there is no concern with goals. There is complacency because everything "just is".
Communism did fail miserably. What you have seen is a mindset shift by many stuck in communist countries. They have learned just to live with it because they have no opportunities. When government owns your housing, your jobs, and your rights, they own you. You just exist the best that you can. If China turned into a free society where the government did not rule, people wouldn't know how to act. They wouldn't know how to think for themselves.
I agree with your last statement. However that is due to our polarized two party system. People refuse to work together because each have their own agenda. I don't think I would want to turn control over to the two parties throwing temper tantrums on a daily basis and have them manage my existence.
Yet another thread going about with the usual suspects shouting their agenda.
Norway was a poor Nordic country till they struck Gold with the North sea oil. They were a bit devious and colluded with UK about delineating the off shore boundaries and cut out Denmark from much off the oil beds. Read about it if you want to know how sudden influx of money makes even the socialist countries greedy.
They have done a good job investing the wealth. Imagine if we had a law stating that 50% of oil discovered in US should go to US Government. It is unlikely to get passed due to lobbyists for the big Oil.
Even if we get a 33% cut we are unlikely to create a trust fund. The conservatives would like it to be given back to the people or spent for some big defense projects. The liberals would like it to be given for more free money to poor, food stamps, college for all etc. Neither side will agree to a trust fund. And it will be spent even before it arrives in their hands.
If 50% or even 33% went to congress, it wouldn't go to feed the poor, or college for all. A great deal of it would go into government pensions and hiring more and more workers, and union coffers, and people's pockets. We gave congress nearly a trillion dollars in 2009 or 2010, and we have very little to show for it.
Does anyone really grasp what a trillion is? It's such a large number, it really should only be used by astronomers and physicists. For perspective, a trillion seconds ago was nearly 32,000 years in the past. And we peddled it away with little or no badly needed new infrastructure. Chew on that for a while.
Why not compare Norway to a prosperous city in the US?
Houston.
Both have lots of oil...and some industry.
The difference is quite simple. In the US, ALL the money goes to the top .1% and to corporations (foreign as well as domestic). The "normal" people in Houston can be compared to the Chinese, Soviets or even those in S. Carolina, etc. in that they are "workers for the rest of the world". But they don't get the true fruits of their labors.
So it is - so it has always been in the USA. Our resources don't belong to "US". They belong to the Kochs and the big Fossil Fuel companies. If you are lucky they may give you a job. It's a feudal system.
Norway's pension fund now owns and average of 1.3% of all companies in the world. Norway's pension system is now so ludicrously wealthy that it'd equate to over $190,000 per person in the country. And here I thought countries with more socialized forms of health care, education, and taxation systems were doomed to utter failure?
Socialist scum are destroying the planet by investing monies from their evil polluting North Sea Oil profits to invest in evil corporations that are causing man made global warming- poor Mother Gaia
Maybe on paper, but not every idea is scalable on a larger level.
In the USA it's about taking care of yourself and your children. I take care of mine, you take care of yours. I don't expect you to participate or contribute to my family nor do I intend to participate or contribute to yours. We receive what we earn (don't get me started on welfare) and if we don't work hard we are not rewarded from the backs of others hard work. There is a fundamental difference here. When everyone takes care of their own families, it benefits the country as a whole and in turn does good for the country. Not a hard connection to make.
The USA isn't on its way downhill. But people who game the system (and this also applies to those who want to work less for more gain) do make it more difficult to live.
You don't receive what you earn!
And you are not taking care of "yours".....that 20+ TRILLION dollar debt is a pot that every American has their hand in. You "think" you are taking care of yours, but you (and I and everyone) is mortgaging our future to pretend that we are taking care of ourselves and our families.
It's not sustainable.
You can find the staunchest "conservative" on here complaining about his $600 per month health insurance premium -when the actual averaged cost for a family of 4 per money is about $3200. Likewise, Americans will complain about their $5,000 per year property taxes (I pay about 18K) when the cost of just ONE of their kids in school is 12K per year.
I'm not being personal - but if MOST people look at their lives they are TAKERS....big time! And I am not talking about conventional welfare and food stamps. Even many MAKERS are getting theirs from the Military Industrial Complex or our ridiculous Medical Systems or other means where they are not really producing.
It simply is not sustainable. Making weapons and then dumping them over a cliff to create more trouble (that's what war is) and then charging our populace 2X the cost for basic medical care...isn't going to work over the long run.
The symptoms are pretty clear - suicide rates, stable or decreasing life spans, more stress, less faith in "the system", etc.
I think it has been going downhill for a long time, but was mitigated by the dot-com boom and then held together by free money after the Great Depression. The question now becomes what we are going to do for an encore?
You don't receive what you earn!
And you are not taking care of "yours".....that 20+ TRILLION dollar debt is a pot that every American has their hand in. You "think" you are taking care of yours, but you (and I and everyone) is mortgaging our future to pretend that we are taking care of ourselves and our families.
It's not sustainable.
You can find the staunchest "conservative" on here complaining about his $600 per month health insurance premium -when the actual averaged cost for a family of 4 per money is about $3200. Likewise, Americans will complain about their $5,000 per year property taxes (I pay about 18K) when the cost of just ONE of their kids in school is 12K per year.
I'm not being personal - but if MOST people look at their lives they are TAKERS....big time! And I am not talking about conventional welfare and food stamps. Even many MAKERS are getting theirs from the Military Industrial Complex or our ridiculous Medical Systems or other means where they are not really producing.
It simply is not sustainable. Making weapons and then dumping them over a cliff to create more trouble (that's what war is) and then charging our populace 2X the cost for basic medical care...isn't going to work over the long run.
The symptoms are pretty clear - suicide rates, stable or decreasing life spans, more stress, less faith in "the system", etc.
I think it has been going downhill for a long time, but was mitigated by the dot-com boom and then held together by free money after the Great Depression. The question now becomes what we are going to do for an encore?
That seems pretty high to me, especially as an average...what are upper middle class people paying? $3,200.00 a year, for 4 people isn't super bad but I think we need to try and get that down, and it certainly shouldn't go any higher than that.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
There’s a huge middle ground: those who are perfectly willing to perform an honest day’s work, in exchange for an honest day’s pay – but who have no particular desire or penchant for climbing. Not everyone who disavows entrepreneurial drive, would instead prefer idleness. Indeed, very few people are at all suited to owning their own business, or “creating jobs” – yet most people are quite well suited to exchanging their labor and knowledge, for a steady and respectable paycheck.
That has also been my experience, with acquaintances from Sweden and Switzerland (which is similar).
The US is unusual, in that degreed/licensed professionals are so strongly remunerated, while semi-skilled blue-collar labor garners so little pay. Part of this is the tax-structure, but part is also the payscale. Sure, the owner of a plumbing-business might earn handsome profits, but a journeyman employee-plumber will likely top out at $25/hour.
It isn't that the northern European system penalizes work and rewards idleness. Rather, it reduces the financial incentive for higher education, and especially for graduate/professional education. Higher-education becomes more of a cultural-good, rather than an economic-good.
Per the bolded, I already gave my internet prize out for the day, or I would have given it to this!
The best case is what about workers who want to actually raise and be part of a happy family? Most business owners or C-Suite types don't get to do that as the workload consumes too much of their time. No going to a childs school play, taking the family to an amusement park, no movie night etc, because you have to work, work, work.....
Per the bolded, I already gave my internet prize out for the day, or I would have given it to this!
The best case is what about workers who want to actually raise and be part of a happy family? Most business owners or C-Suite types don't get to do that as the workload consumes too much of their time. No going to a childs school play, taking the family to an amusement park, no movie night etc, because you have to work, work, work.....
So true...then they end up cheating on their wife too, it's quite often a very unfulfilling relationship. I know of quite a few guys that make a lot of money and they have to travel for work pretty often. They all have issues remaining faithful. In some cases I think the woman knows but doesn't care because he's supporting her and she just does what she wants too. What a life.
That seems pretty high to me, especially as an average...what are upper middle class people paying? $3,200.00 a year, for 4 people isn't super bad but I think we need to try and get that down, and it certainly shouldn't go any higher than that.
3200 A MONTH.
10.6K per person per year is the cost for health care in the USA. 42K per year for family of 4 - or about 3200/mon
You can slice and dice it up any way you want, but that is the cost. Most of it right now is paid by debt and deficit because people could not afford the real cost. So they pretend they do and throw it off to sometime in the far far future so that others will pay.
And, before anyone asks, it was 8.8K per person when GW left office and had increased more per year % wise under his "lack of doing anything" about it - the only "benefit" we got was Part D (which should stand for debt") and also companies were dropping and bankrupting people left and right.
In short, if a family of 4 is not paying at least 70K+ per year in taxes (health premiums, prop and fed taxes) they are not nearly paying for their own basic services. Think about that.
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