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Old 09-28-2017, 09:01 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
89,026 posts, read 44,824,472 times
Reputation: 13711

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
And the right is adamantly against nationalizing our oil reserves.
Says who? There's no requirement whatsoever that the federal government must sell federal government land drilling rights to the private sector.

 
Old 09-28-2017, 09:02 AM
 
6,467 posts, read 8,188,270 times
Reputation: 5515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
Does anyone know if Norway sold oil and then purchased equities using USD or Krone?
SEK, I think.
 
Old 09-28-2017, 09:18 AM
 
Location: New York
628 posts, read 663,288 times
Reputation: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
I've seen this argument more times than I can count. I've yet to see anyone actually explain why homogeneity and smaller population actually effects this in any way.
A homogeneous society is extremely loyal and patriotic one. For the most part, these people are connected by a shared lineage, history, and evolution. For lack of a better phrase, they are of the same blood. This leads to a "high-trust" society. The US was a "high-trust" society but has slipped into a low trust one as a result of diversity. For exampled, you used to be able to hitch hike in the US, not anymore. In homogeneous society you also don't have racial resentment (a prominent feature of diverse nations). In homogeneous nations they see each other as brothers and sisters and are okay with the idea of a robust social welfare system because it goes to "their people."

Also, if you find this so hard to believe then just look at the nations which always receive the "best standard of living" awards. Its always homogeneous nations like the Nordic ones (den,nor,swe,fin,ice); Australia and New Zealand; Japan, etc.. Notice the pattern? they are all essentially 90%+ of either white or Asian.
 
Old 09-28-2017, 09:26 AM
 
8,152 posts, read 3,676,088 times
Reputation: 2719
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That doesn't change the fact that Norway's middle class is in Norway's highest income tax rate bracket, while in the US it takes 8 times a middle class income to hit the top tax rate bracket.

Well, we can't have those things here in the US because the middle class and low-income don't pay their fair share via a MUCH flatter income tax structure and a 20-25% VAT tax that EVERYONE pays.

The US is overly dependent on taxing the rich. The result: inadequate tax revenue to fund those nice things, PLUS the added perverse incentive that doing so generates for the federal government to make sure only the rich get richer in order to maximize tax revenue.
You seem to be saying that the middle class income in US is around 50k, while well above 100k in Norway. That's incorrect, or at least the middle class is defined differently.

In Europe, rich are taxed more, way more. With the exception of a few tax havens.

The middle class here is taxed plenty for what you get (which is really not much).
 
Old 09-28-2017, 09:55 AM
 
Location: USA
18,494 posts, read 9,161,666 times
Reputation: 8528
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydean View Post
A homogeneous society is extremely loyal and patriotic one. For the most part, these people are connected by a shared lineage, history, and evolution. For lack of a better phrase, they are of the same blood. This leads to a "high-trust" society. The US was a "high-trust" society but has slipped into a low trust one as a result of diversity. For exampled, you used to be able to hitch hike in the US, not anymore. In homogeneous society you also don't have racial resentment (a prominent feature of diverse nations). In homogeneous nations they see each other as brothers and sisters and are okay with the idea of a robust social welfare system because it goes to "their people."

Also, if you find this so hard to believe then just look at the nations which always receive the "best standard of living" awards. Its always homogeneous nations like the Nordic ones (den,nor,swe,fin,ice); Australia and New Zealand; Japan, etc.. Notice the pattern? they are all essentially 90%+ of either white or Asian.
I believe you are correct, except for one thing: the US was never homogeneous or "high trust."

America was initially settled by competing Christian sects who often hated each other. Later waves of immigration from various European nations created even more division. On the west coast, Chinese immigrants were specifically excluded from society. Add all of this together and you get a nation that consists mainly of bitterly divided tribes. We can't stand the thought of cooperating for the "common good" because it means that "my money" is going to "those people."

The whole situation is great for Capital seeking to exploit Labor. If Labor can't unite against the power of Capital, Capital wins. For example, Andrew Carnegie exploited the ethnic divisions in his largely immigrant work force to keep them from forming a labor union. And it worked. And it's still working today.

"Yes there is a class war, and it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."
-- Warren Buffett
 
Old 09-28-2017, 10:18 AM
 
18,802 posts, read 8,471,648 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Says who? There's no requirement whatsoever that the federal government must sell federal government land drilling rights to the private sector.
True. But does the right want the federal gov't extract and sell our oil and create a Norway-like fund?
 
Old 09-28-2017, 10:19 AM
 
18,802 posts, read 8,471,648 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmptrwlt View Post
SEK, I think.
Why SEK?
 
Old 09-28-2017, 12:23 PM
 
8,502 posts, read 3,341,588 times
Reputation: 7030
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydean View Post
A homogeneous society is extremely loyal and patriotic one. For the most part, these people are connected by a shared lineage, history, and evolution. For lack of a better phrase, they are of the same blood. This leads to a "high-trust" society. The US was a "high-trust" society but has slipped into a low trust one as a result of diversity. For exampled, you used to be able to hitch hike in the US, not anymore. In homogeneous society you also don't have racial resentment (a prominent feature of diverse nations). In homogeneous nations they see each other as brothers and sisters and are okay with the idea of a robust social welfare system because it goes to "their people."

Also, if you find this so hard to believe then just look at the nations which always receive the "best standard of living" awards. Its always homogeneous nations like the Nordic ones (den,nor,swe,fin,ice); Australia and New Zealand; Japan, etc.. Notice the pattern? they are all essentially 90%+ of either white or Asian.
I don't disagree with your analysis - there ARE common understandings in a homogenous community that promote "high-trust." That said, it's possible to promote high-trust using other societal mechanisms.

Likewise, diversity (multiculturalism) can lead to other societal-goods. Even though we are neurologically-prgrammed to fear "the other" we are also capable of responding to learning.

I'd say that some of slippage of "high-trust" here in the US may have less to do with absolutely multiculturalism and more to do an exploitation of that innate human tendency to fear the unknown.

It's the advantage of some to promote dissension and division.

More, most of the inherent ideologically division arises from subcomponents among our original white settlers.

Norwegians are cultural programmed for community, Americans are culturally programmed for rampant individualism.
 
Old 09-28-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,676,363 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by montydean View Post
A homogeneous society is extremely loyal and patriotic one. For the most part, these people are connected by a shared lineage, history, and evolution. For lack of a better phrase, they are of the same blood. This leads to a "high-trust" society. The US was a "high-trust" society but has slipped into a low trust one as a result of diversity. For exampled, you used to be able to hitch hike in the US, not anymore. In homogeneous society you also don't have racial resentment (a prominent feature of diverse nations). In homogeneous nations they see each other as brothers and sisters and are okay with the idea of a robust social welfare system because it goes to "their people."

Also, if you find this so hard to believe then just look at the nations which always receive the "best standard of living" awards. Its always homogeneous nations like the Nordic ones (den,nor,swe,fin,ice);Australia and New Zealand; Japan, etc.. Notice the pattern? they are all essentially 90%+ of either white or Asian.
Not true of NZ which is less homogeneous than the US.
 
Old 09-28-2017, 12:34 PM
 
8,502 posts, read 3,341,588 times
Reputation: 7030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
I believe you are correct, except for one thing: the US was never homogeneous or "high trust."

America was initially settled by competing Christian sects who often hated each other. Later waves of immigration from various European nations created even more division. On the west coast, Chinese immigrants were specifically excluded from society. Add all of this together and you get a nation that consists mainly of bitterly divided tribes. We can't stand the thought of cooperating for the "common good" because it means that "my money" is going to "those people."

The whole situation is great for Capital seeking to exploit Labor. If Labor can't unite against the power of Capital, Capital wins. For example, Andrew Carnegie exploited the ethnic divisions in his largely immigrant work force to keep them from forming a labor union. And it worked. And it's still working today.

"Yes there is a class war, and it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning."
-- Warren Buffett
We wrote at the same time.

Absolutely. I don't think the inherent division was exactly differing Christian sects - rather those with inherently different views of society clashed. The more communal Yankees were Puritan, likewise you have the Quakers whose take on community, government differed dramatically from the Presbyterian Scots-Irish with their rampant individualism.

Subsequent waves of immigrants fit themselves into these divisions, often depending on where they settled geographically.

Some of this is the old chicken and the egg argument. Do religious differences promote discord or is religion instead exploited by certain leaders for their political ends? Sure, differences make it *easier* so sow discord but history also shows that peoples can live for centuries in relative peace and harmony until so-manipulated.
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