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And again, in the US we have the ability to choose.
And again, whether that’s a good thing, or a bad one, depends on one’s personal wherewithal. It greatly benefits the creative and the enterprising. It harms those lacking such qualities, but who are in principle willing to work hard, if aptly directed. For some people, this availability of choice is tremendously liberating and satisfying. I’m glad that such people exist, for it is ultimately their impetus that’s responsible for technological progress. But most people don’t possess the sort of qualities where they directly benefit from such a system. Most people delude themselves into thinking that an abstract freedom of this sort, translates into a concrete freedom for them personally.
Don't tell that to Norway since their government pretty much controls everything and is now looking at selling off some of their interests to private companies. I wonder why they'd consider doing that?
If you're comparing Norway to the U.S., we can do that. The average COL is 56.32% higher than in the U.S.
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Norway - Inexpensive restaurant - $21.70/Chicago - $15.00
Norway - Bottle of Coke/Pepsi - $3.82/Chicago - $3.73
Norway - 1 gallon of milk - $7.89/Chicago - $2.98
Norway - Pack of cigarettes - $13.79/Chicago - $12.00
Norway - Gasoline (per gallon) - $7.08/Chicago - $2.74
Norway - Basic utilities - $190.33/Chicago - $124.58
Norway - 1 pair of jeans (Levis) - $110.28/Chicago - $48.04
Norway - Apartment rent (1 bedroom in city center) - $1,235.57/Chicago - $1797.50
Norway - Average monthly net salary - $3,463.50 (or around $41k per year)/Chicago - $3,739.65 ($44,875.80)** According to other websites, the actual avg net salary of a Norwegian is $33,393 per year.** OECD Better Life Index
A Norwegian has very little disposable income left after paying rent, utilities, and things that we all must buy.
If they pay rent for 1 year: $33,393 - $14,826.84 (12 mos rent) = $18,566.16
If they pay utilities for 1 year: $18,566.16 - $2,283.96 (12 mos util) = $16,282.20
100 gallons of gasoline for the year: $16282.20-$708 = $15,574.20
Clothing for the year (estimated 6 pair of jeans, shirts, socks, and shoes) = $15,574.20 - $1,400(avg) = $14,174.20
Eating at an inexpensive restaurant 4 times per month = $14,174.20 - $781.20 = $13,393.00
Divide that by 12 months = $1,116.08 per month remaining in disposable income. This doesn't take into account vehicle maintenance, vehicle costs, vehicle insurance, groceries for the home, cable tv, cell phones, or any other luxuries. It is very easy to end up having almost no disposable income remaining.
The greatest myth ever was to present socialism in such a way as to get people to willingly give over their freedom to succeed or fail for false security. When those oil reserves dry up and the government can no longer sustain the people what happens next?
Never been that interested in the Nordic countries but finally made it there (Norway, Sweden) this summer. Even to a casual tourist, it is clear that comparisons like this simply don't work for Norway.
Fascinating to make a quick visit - not only for the bloody beautiful scenery but to be in a place that was so profoundly DIFFERENT from the US though a Western democracy with an (ultra) modern infrastructure. People truly think differently - but no socialistic mind control here, rather the opposite.
The sense of the collective is SO strong, fostered by generations of living in relatively isolated communities many of which were separated by fjords. Compared, say, to Sweden, Norwegians for centuries were cut off from the rest of Europe in comparative poverty. When the oil wealth hit, they determined to take control. Government is a tool that the Norwegians use to manage their money and their welfare.
As for all these price comparisons - largely meaningless. To begin, when government programs take on a certain amount of life risk - education (to the collegiate level and beyond for those who qualify), health, old age - individuals need not "over save" but can instead devote a substantial portion of their disposable income to consumption.
Too, Norway uses the krone not the Euro with the value of Norwegian krone compared to other currencies varying in large part on oil prices. Over the last couple of decades the krone has been relatively strong. If you're paid in krone, prices are much more reasonable than when converted into dollars. Norwegians traveling in other European countries are analogous to the Swiss who shop across their borders whenever possible. Rich!
Even more important though - consumption is so different. You didn't list taxis - on the chart, taxis were 75% cheaper in Chicago than in Oslo. But who in the heck would use a taxi? Public transportation is fabulous. For the elderly, there are state-provided shuttles. Again, part of this is the sense of community but it blew my mind to see the shuttles going around in the evening to houses in isolated hamlets gathering up the elderly to bring to a local restaurant to enjoy a meal together before the restaurant opened to regular customers.
Clothing? Again, the prices are sky-high if buying in dollars. But that aside, Oslo was strikingly different from even Stockholm in how they dressed - and consumed clothing. I'll say "sensible" (both in volume and for the weather) ... and leave it at that.
Restaurant prices are high even for Norwegians - and so again the consumption pattern differs. A nervous tourist, I thought we'd starve. Hardly. Instead of sit-down restaurants there is a burgeoning take-away food pattern. Food trucks. Incredibly good, fresh food available in every corner market. Inexpensive too - priced about the same as in the US but much higher quality.
It's a good way to live. Granted, Norwegians struck it rich with oil. But contrast their pattern to, say, states in the ME. Norwegians use democracy AND government to make it work for them.
There’s a huge middle ground: those who are perfectly willing to perform an honest day’s work, in exchange for an honest day’s pay – but who have no particular desire or penchant for climbing. Not everyone who disavows entrepreneurial drive, would instead prefer idleness. Indeed, very few people are at all suited to owning their own business, or “creating jobs” – yet most people are quite well suited to exchanging their labor and knowledge, for a steady and respectable paycheck.
That has also been my experience, with acquaintances from Sweden and Switzerland (which is similar).
The US is unusual, in that degreed/licensed professionals are so strongly remunerated, while semi-skilled blue-collar labor garners so little pay. Part of this is the tax-structure, but part is also the payscale. Sure, the owner of a plumbing-business might earn handsome profits, but a journeyman employee-plumber will likely top out at $25/hour.
It isn't that the northern European system penalizes work and rewards idleness. Rather, it reduces the financial incentive for higher education, and especially for graduate/professional education. Higher-education becomes more of a cultural-good, rather than an economic-good.
That problem is that what some would make political - capitalism vs socialism - is in many cases far more an issue of culture. Norway - and much of Northern Europe, certainly including Germany - differs dramatically from Southern Europe in that, among other factors, it is not a "cafe" society. Hard work is valued not only as a plus for the community or to enrich the individual but is an issue of personal pride that isn't really analogous, say, to the Puritanistic work ethic.
Trying to understand or value other mind sets utilizing our own constructs is fault with difficulties. The experiences we've had in the US with system abuses isn't directly analogous to a place like Norway. Does a more unified culture aid communal understanding? Maybe. But it's a two-way street. It may not be possible to duplicate the Norwegian-experience here in the US, but to denigrate it as an example of mind-control or take nothing away from what works in Norway is also pretty far wide of the mark.
It isn't that the northern European system penalizes work and rewards idleness. Rather, it reduces the financial incentive for higher education, and especially for graduate/professional education. Higher-education becomes more of a cultural-good, rather than an economic-good.
Agree, again.
Historically, there's also much stronger current of intellectualism in Europe than in the US that traditionally valued entrepreneurship. The individual becomes a professor or doctor because of personal drive or interest or how they want to live their life not necessarily to make that much more money than the blue-collar garbage man.
Historically, there's also much stronger current of intellectualism in Europe than in the US that traditionally valued entrepreneurship. The individual becomes a professor or doctor because of personal drive or interest or how they want to live their life not necessarily to make that much more money than the blue-collar garbage man.
Excellent posts, all three. Yes, Norway has oil. But more importantly, it has Norwegians.
There may be corporations out there that do this, but it isn't all of them. The difference between the U.S. and Norway is that we get to decide where we fit on the economic scale. We can choose to make more or make less. The government doesn't decide that for us ahead of time. They also don't decide that we make too much and take more of our earnings away to give to those who don't work nearly as hard for it (yes... I understand welfare and S.S...... but it isn't in the same percentages).
Being more productive and pushing to advance has helped me move from $19k per year to almost $100k per year at 35. My wife is well over 6 figures. Could we do that under a non-capitalist system?
And again, in the US we have the ability to choose.
The company chooses where you fit on the economic scale. At private companies there is a huge variance in the compensation offered. What you and your wife did where you work now...might have been a totally different story at a company down the street. You might only be making 35k now.
Private companies do not have a standard scale that they have to abide by when it comes to rewarding productivity. Lots of very productive workers only get like a 2 percent raise a year.
Some people would rather start higher but have a lower ceiling, and not roll the dice that the company they work for is going to payout down the road and be benevolent.
Again, this is why people in the U.S. love govt and union jobs. There is more of a set standard, not to mention a pension.
Norway's pension fund now owns and average of 1.3% of all companies in the world. Norway's pension system is now so ludicrously wealthy that it'd equate to over $190,000 per person in the country. And here I thought countries with more socialized forms of health care, education, and taxation systems were doomed to utter failure?
You can do anything with other people's money; until it runs out.
Because it's a small homogeneous Nordic country where everyone looks, thinks and acts alike and trusts each other. Less people live in Norway than live in South Carolina. Norway has 5 million people, we have 350 million people.
And they nationalized the oil wells off their coasts. Massively taxing their people gives the government a large fund as well. Norway doesn't have a "47%".
They work fewer hours and have more vacation time than Americans. If that isn't "more freedom," then what is?
Businesses in Norway probably have less freedom to abuse their employees compared to businesses in America, but that's a good thing for everyone except the business owners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert
They don't have to worry about going bankrupt, but their country does which by default bankrupts them. You have a system that is trying to give more than it receives, and we all know that is not sustainable long-term.
Please explain how Norway bankrupts its citizens. It's the US that has spiraling healthcare and college costs, which are bankrupting the middle class. And if you want to talk about sustainability, it's the US that has massive deficits due to tax cuts for the rich, unnecessary wars, and Wall Street bailouts. Norway is a paragon of fiscal responsibility compared to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert
You have to give more of yourself to receive more here. That is why we succeed or fail individually instead of as a group. Bob doesn't get to decide if I fail because he cannot make ends meet. If I can succeed on my own he is free to fail any way that he sees fit.
It's possible that Bob lost his job because of economic recession, technological change (coal, camera film), mental or physical illness, disability, etc. Or perhaps Bob was born into an abusive household in a bad school district. To judge Bob worthy of destitution would be somewhat cruel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert
They have a lower crime rate because the government controls almost every aspect of their lives. Think about that.
Really? Please explain. I'd say that's blatant codswallop.
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