Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 10-21-2017, 11:58 AM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
Reputation: 3416

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
Most of our guns are inherited. They date back to the 50s and 60s. Never been registered.
That'd be me. Dad died about this time last year. Shish..., don't tell anyone!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:05 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Are you perhaps conflating the ability of someone to overcome addiction with the ability of a society to stop addiction?
Better put, I think I am pointing out that while ALL addiction cannot be stopped -- of course -- some CAN be helped. Some can overcome addiction. Yes, as I think I pointed out before. Accordingly, while many efforts to help abusers don't work with some, they do help others, so... those efforts are of some value to continue and improve upon where possible, according to some anyway.

Not conflating anything...

Am I? Are you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:07 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
The question isn't whether or not addiction can be beaten or controlled. I can give personal testimony that it can. It's hard, it's painful, and it's a battle that will be fought for the rest of the recovered addict's life, but it is possible to stop being an (active) addict.

The question is whether or not addiction can be stopped. The answer to that is no, we can't. We can help addicts, we can educate people, we can run gather every program in the world that is aimed at stopping addiction and run them all at the same time. It still won't stop every single person from becoming an addict. The ones that beat it may or not remain in control of it. Even if they do, though, someone else will become addicted to something.
Was this part of my comment not clear enough then?

"At a minimum, there are ways to help some. No ways to help others. On that we can agree without further comment."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,054 posts, read 10,615,153 times
Reputation: 9687
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
If the debate here is about banning all guns, then I can appreciate what you are explaining, but is it?

Though I know those opposed to any sort of gun control dialogue will quickly invoke the "they're just out to ban all guns" argument, but that's not really on the table in any serious way anywhere that I know of in America.

Fact is today, I don't think there is ANY debate about this, we can all own our hand guns, shot guns and all sorts of other guns that well serve the deterrence purpose you emphasize, if we really want to believe we're deterring anything. We can and do buy those weapons in America in a big way.

Whether military style weapons are necessary -- weapons I like to call WMDs (like Paddock preferred) -- are necessary for the deterrence purpose you feel strongly about is the question I think.

I think not, though I also don't think a ban on such weapons has any good chance of deterring yahoos with such weapons from doing what Paddock did. Same goes for the good guys with such weapons. They're not deterring anything either for all practical purposes. My take anyway...

That take also make me a "gun grabber?"
I think the issue is that some people are making an either/or case for certain types of firearms. There is no either/or, though. A firearm is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. You may not agree with what some people choose to use that tool for, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, a tool.

Like any other tool, different versions need to be used for different things. For example, I own 5 different hammers. That seems like a lot of hammers, but each one is used for something specific. One is used for general carpentry and is extremely heavy. Seriously, it's a beast - but it drives in framing nails in 2 hits. However, I wouldn't use that hammer to do finish work like putting up baseboards because it is too heavy and unwieldy for that work. Instead, I have a very small hammer that is used for finish work. In between, there are three other types of hammers that are used for different stages of carpentry and construction.

Firearms are also tools, and different versions are used for different things.

Handguns are for personal protection in most cases, because typically you will be fairly close to an assailant when you use a handgun and a handgun is something that can be easily concealed and carried. Shotguns are great for home defense, but not so great for carrying around. Rifles, in general, are designed for distance work beyond what a handgun or a shotgun is good for. All have a different place in the arsenal because all have different uses.

Those scary black rifles like the AR15 that have anti-gunners freaking out, what you consider a WMD - which, by the way, is a complete misnomer - serve a purpose in the arsenal too, and in fact are much closer to the intentions of the Founding Fathers than any other type of firearm. The intent of the 2nd Amendment (which can be learned by reading the writings of the people who wrote it, ratified it, and gave it a place directly behind freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights) was to ensure that the citizenry was at least as well armed as the soldiers of any aggressive force - whether that force was an invading army or our own government if the situation demanded that the government be reminded that it works for the people.

When you say that the founders didn't want the citizenry to own such "dangerous" weapons you are either being deceptive or you don't understand the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Since the AR15 is the closest equivalent to a full military rifle that a civilian can own, the AR15 is not exactly what the founders would want us to have, but it is a decent compromise. In reality, according to the Founding Fathers' own writings, American citizens should have access to any small arm that a military would have - which means that the AR15 is actually a weak substitute for the M16 but due to currently existing laws the M16 is prohibited for the average civilian.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,054 posts, read 10,615,153 times
Reputation: 9687
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Was this part of my comment not clear enough then?

"At a minimum, there are ways to help some. No ways to help others. On that we can agree without further comment."
That part was perfectly clear. What was unclear was the following:

Quote:
and then let's judge whether there is "no way to stop addiction." Fair?
That's the part I was responding to.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:22 PM
 
10,337 posts, read 5,506,441 times
Reputation: 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Better put, I think I am pointing out that while ALL addiction cannot be stopped -- of course -- some CAN be helped. Some can overcome addiction. Yes, as I think I pointed out before. Accordingly, while many efforts to help abusers don't work with some, they do help others, so... those efforts are of some value to continue and improve upon where possible, according to some anyway.

Not conflating anything...

Am I? Are you?
I wasn't conflating anything, and simply responded to this post of yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Uhh...

Perhaps we do a little research of all who have fought and won the battle of addiction (if that battle can ever be considered "won") and then let's judge whether there is "no way to stop addiction." Fair?

At a minimum, there are ways to help some. No ways to help others. On that we can agree without further comment.
In the highlighted section, it appears that you are saying that since some have overcome addiction, that it can be stopped. Is that not your contention?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:24 PM
 
10,337 posts, read 5,506,441 times
Reputation: 10436
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
That part was perfectly clear. What was unclear was the following:



That's the part I was responding to.
It appears we have the same question regarding LearnMe's post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:32 PM
 
29,335 posts, read 9,513,380 times
Reputation: 3416
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
I think the issue is that some people are making an either/or case for certain types of firearms. There is no either/or, though. A firearm is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. You may not agree with what some people choose to use that tool for, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, a tool.

Like any other tool, different versions need to be used for different things. For example, I own 5 different hammers. That seems like a lot of hammers, but each one is used for something specific. One is used for general carpentry and is extremely heavy. Seriously, it's a beast - but it drives in framing nails in 2 hits. However, I wouldn't use that hammer to do finish work like putting up baseboards because it is too heavy and unwieldy for that work. Instead, I have a very small hammer that is used for finish work. In between, there are three other types of hammers that are used for different stages of carpentry and construction.

Firearms are also tools, and different versions are used for different things.

Handguns are for personal protection in most cases, because typically you will be fairly close to an assailant when you use a handgun and a handgun is something that can be easily concealed and carried. Shotguns are great for home defense, but not so great for carrying around. Rifles, in general, are designed for distance work beyond what a handgun or a shotgun is good for. All have a different place in the arsenal because all have different uses.

Those scary black rifles like the AR15 that have anti-gunners freaking out, what you consider a WMD - which, by the way, is a complete misnomer - serve a purpose in the arsenal too, and in fact are much closer to the intentions of the Founding Fathers than any other type of firearm. The intent of the 2nd Amendment (which can be learned by reading the writings of the people who wrote it, ratified it, and gave it a place directly behind freedom of speech in the Bill of Rights) was to ensure that the citizenry was at least as well armed as the soldiers of any aggressive force - whether that force was an invading army or our own government if the situation demanded that the government be reminded that it works for the people.

When you say that the founders didn't want the citizenry to own such "dangerous" weapons you are either being deceptive or you don't understand the purpose of the 2nd Amendment. Since the AR15 is the closest equivalent to a full military rifle that a civilian can own, the AR15 is not exactly what the founders would want us to have, but it is a decent compromise. In reality, according to the Founding Fathers' own writings, American citizens should have access to any small arm that a military would have - which means that the AR15 is actually a weak substitute for the M16 but due to currently existing laws the M16 is prohibited for the average civilian.
All good and fine. I've got a few different types of hammers too...

All understood and agreed until about there where you start in on the "scary black rifles." I suspect you pick that description for obvious reasons, but again, not my words. I might just point out, however, that the AR15 and/or M16 is not at all scary in the hands of some but awfully scary for all of us in the hands of others. I think this begins to better define where the focus of this issue/discussion should stay.

Secondly about the "intent" of the 2A. Any 6th grader should pretty well be able to explain what the 2A was/is about if they paid any attention to those lessons about the founding fathers and the writing of the constitution. Here the issue or debate is not about that intent but the extent to which that intent then relates to our reality today so as to justify the ownership of a "WMD" (that I know is no precise definition of any sort).

I have no trouble whatsoever understanding what you explain at all. My trouble is that so many people are naive enough to think we can arm ourselves to repel any modern day military like our own, to be "as well armed."

With all due respect, I call that the "minute men with musket argument," and it's just too cute, quaint and antiquated for words, or do you really want to discuss how we would fend off our US military when everything today is about supply lines anyway; food, water, energy. That argument is just too silly for words long before we even get to the part about matching firepower...

Again, this does not mean for me that banning weapons designed for military style assault will serve to stop incidents like Paddock pulled off, and again I'm not a "gun grabber," but I do find all too many arguments against gun control, like this one about our founding father's intent with the 2A sorely lacking in the context of our reality today.

Best I can do for now, since I have no more time to waste in this wasteland of another gun thread this morning, but I do appreciate your comment not so full of typical foolish rhetoric and insult. Best!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:38 PM
 
Location: PSL
8,224 posts, read 3,461,110 times
Reputation: 2963
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Fear of bad guys. Fear of registries. Fear of goboment. Must be hard to sleep at night sometimes...

End game for me is something more like the World Series.
Not fear of government per say. More like being prepared to thwart tyranny. Actually it's quite easy to sleep at night.

Firearms are such a plague on society right...

Are you ready? Here goes... you tell me what killed more Americans...



If we're being honest about banning implements that cause death... your sides argument pertaining to "assault rifles" which fall in line with Rifles, looks clearly to me that knives, hands, fists, feet, and blunt force objects are more of a threat.


Officers using firearms in the line of duty.


Private citizens using firearms to protect property and life.


Better ban ANYTHING that goes near a road, cars, trucks, suvs, bicycles, pedestrians, motorcycles 35k were killed...


Give up your guns! Do it for the children! Say the advocates for abortion...


Almost 40k new biological weapons were reported in 2015


Ban Heart disease! No more video games and sedentary life styles, fast food, stress or cigarettes! Ban fat people from having access to forks! Require back ground checks at fast food joints! Limit access to video games and doing nothing!


Better ban opioid perscriptions for pain.

Yeah... firearms sure are the leading cause of death in this country. You are so totally right...

Here's a thought, remove criminals incentive to commit crime. Allow citizens their God given constitutionally protected rights to keep and bear arms, and end gun free zones, and end prosecuting law abiding citizens who thwart threats to property life and liberty...
Gun free zones are like OSHA for criminals.
Allow teachers to be armed, you remove the incentive for a psycho to shoot up innocent children... Bank trucks offer far more incentive to be shot up and raided... yet psychos target schools. I wonder if being a gun free zone, with a response time from 911 being in the minutes to arrive, assess the situation and deploy, provides incentive... over the armed guards of the bank truck...

Go further and gut the 8th amendment any act of violence either gets cruel and unusual punishment, or instead of 3 hots and a cot, and cable TV put them to work on infrastructure projects. So that they serve time and become rehabilitated not to revert back to their ways. It's an untapped labor market really. They could learn a skilled trade and take pride in making the communities they serve a better place.

Then again... that implies they even have pride...
Myself, I take pride in my work. Whether it's building an engine, or in my side gig.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-21-2017, 12:48 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,562 posts, read 44,283,634 times
Reputation: 13511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex New Yorker View Post
You're not going to get any argument from me on that point. Gun registries are useless as criminals do not obtain their guns through legal channels. They're certainly not going to register them that's for sure. I doubt they're filling out Form 4473 and submitting themselves to the NICS check.

We don't have a gun problem, we have a criminal problem along with a broken criminal justice system that allows violent felons to freely roam the streets.
Absolutely 100% that. ^
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top