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Old 03-29-2018, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Nowhere
10,098 posts, read 4,062,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post

"Australia has low rates of crime (particularly compared to the United States) and Australia is very safe.
What was their crime rate like before the gun ban? What was England's crime rate like before their ban?
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:56 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Perhaps "nobody" is too strong a term. I should have said "nobody who thinks logically." Several posters have already publicly stated that they are putting this particular member on the ignore list due to his seeming inability to actually participate in a logical debate.
Terms like "nobody" and other absolutes are always a "red flag" to me, and this business of putting people on the ignore list is something I don't much entertain either. Never have. All the comments speak for themselves, and we've all got the freedom to pick and choose what comments to entertain or not. Don't need an ignore function for that or anyone deciding along those lines for me. Speaking for myself again of course...

Let freedom reign!

Or if I DID use the ignore function, I sure would have a lot fewer comments to consider by now. Huh! Maybe that's how I can waste less time in this forum! Need to think about that...
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,111 posts, read 10,664,343 times
Reputation: 9756
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Though true, many of the differences you note, there are similarities too, just like we can consider with the Earth and the Moon. We can learn from both the differences AND similarities, as we should, and not be afraid of what objective evaluation of the data may tell us or help to tell us.

What is "idiotic" is not to consider the data and statistics here and as they compare to other countries. Certainly NOT to confuse matters with factors that are not entirely relevant to people who perpetrate or are victim of gun violence. Whether their constitution is different, for example, doesn't matter as much as whether they are more or less likely to be killed as a result of gun violence. Right?
Wrong. The US Constitution is the basis for all of our laws. No law that challenges the Constitution can be considered valid. That makes any sort of firearms legislation such as Britain has completely unworkable here.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:04 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavalier View Post
What was their crime rate like before the gun ban? What was England's crime rate like before their ban?
Again, the statistic most compelling by way of comparison is number of mass shootings, rate of mass shootings before and after, at least significant enough to be worth consideration and evaluation far as I'm concerned, or why not?

As for other or general crime rates, depending on how you measure and define crime, Australia and the UK seem to do better than the United States according to this source...

Australian vs United States Crime Stats Compared

Whether true or not before or after the ban, again depends on how we measure, but ultimately I think the goal is to consider where the statistics indicate less crime and then to consider why that is. In any case, this is why we compare and contrast, though some don't even think that is appropriate...
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Morrison, CO
34,172 posts, read 18,471,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Wrong. The US Constitution is the basis for all of our laws. No law that challenges the Constitution can be considered valid. That makes any sort of firearms legislation such as Britain has completely unworkable here.
They continuously harp on "Gun Violence" as if the gun causes the crime, and not the individual. Homicides are committed using other means than a gun in the U.S. and other countries. It is also committed with guns in countries that have gun bans, and heavy restrictions on guns. Harming the law abiding is not the answer. These people just hate we are able to legally, and responsibly own guns.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:13 AM
 
9,254 posts, read 3,566,255 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Wrong. The US Constitution is the basis for all of our laws. No law that challenges the Constitution can be considered valid. That makes any sort of firearms legislation such as Britain has completely unworkable here.
The UK has a Constitution. Educate yourself before posting.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:19 AM
 
29,410 posts, read 9,604,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
Wrong. The US Constitution is the basis for all of our laws. No law that challenges the Constitution can be considered valid. That makes any sort of firearms legislation such as Britain has completely unworkable here.
Not wrong. Though the constitution is the basis for all our laws, the constitution and all our laws are not necessarily the best when it comes to addressing gun related violence. To what extent we CAN control gun violence is the issue at hand, the subject of this thread.

Though of course we have our legal parameters to consider in this country, gun control has been deemed constitutional. People in Australia can own guns too. The question is what gun control might help prevent mass shootings, for example, and also be constitutional.

Also of course, the more radical consideration is amending the constitution to allow even more strict gun control more like Australia and England has adopted. This too is doable just like our constitution was amended to change the voting power of blacks from 3/5ths a white man to equal.

Though radical, if mass shootings and gun violence continue to be order-of-magnitude more prevalent in this country and order-of-magnitude more unacceptable to Americans, the more radical possibility of amending the constitution becomes more likely.

ALL that can and should be considered even if the ultimate determination and/or conclusion doesn't sit well with gun control advocates and/or gun enthusiasts. Right?

Was a time, to use another example, that ending segregation was also "off the table" in terms of consideration, but time, circumstances and problems getting out of hand tends to make the unthinkable more thinkable, right or wrong. Lots of examples of correcting wrongs that were once considered "off the table" by many gives me reason to think, at least, that nothing should really be "off the table" when it comes to objective consideration about what is right and what is wrong, what might work better or maybe not...
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
1,081 posts, read 546,081 times
Reputation: 964
Comparing just gun crime before and after a gun ban/confiscation is missing the whole picture. You need to compare all violent crime (independent of the tools used.) As has been shown in other threads, the small percentage of the reduction in violent crime in Australia post firearm ban could not be attributed directly to the removal of firearms. The trend was already trending down and it made no significant difference in the trend.

The majority of US firearm deaths are suicides (two-thirds of firearm deaths.) Taking away the tool does not take away the wish to commit suicide. In order to reduce our "Gun Violence" perhaps we should explore opening euthanasia centers.

The second largest category of US firearm deaths can be attributed to inner city crime. Once again, criminals do not follow laws and most do not legally own their firearms. A gun ban/confiscation would not pull these firearms off the street.

Comparing one country's statistics to another is not apples to apples. Reporting standards can be different along with the criteria. Each country has different contributing factors (i.e. Australia being an island nation and the US Attorney General selling guns to criminal elements in the next country south that were used to kill US citizens.)

I would agree with the others that you cannot meaningfully compare UK, US, and AU.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:24 AM
 
18,910 posts, read 6,919,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feltdesigner View Post
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts

some interesting stats and graphs regarding gun violence in America vs other places.

IMO we need stricter gun laws. What we have right now isn't working and the amount of gun deaths is staggering.
And I think you're naive if you think more laws will fix it.

Look at Europe. Violence is routine. Oh, sure....though shootings happen, they're not as regular. But look what IS used. Bombs, cars, knives, etc...etc... Bad people attack soft targets because that's what they can hit. In America, it's schools. This is just our version of the violence. So let's fix the issue, not just try to apply a band-aid.

If we ban guns...then what? Bombs will be planted in schools. Acid will be tossed in faces. Cars will be driven through playgrounds. Machete-wielding madmen will attack schools. And who will defend them? If we refuse to harden our schools and provide some way to defend them...it's still going to happen.

We also need to fix the culture. Americans, like Europeans, have very low regard for life. 75 million dead since Roe v. Wade. It's hard to find an action movie without murder and death. The top tv shows show murder and death. Video games glorify it. Imagine for a moment if Hollywood and game makers decided to not include violence and death in their products. What would happen?
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Nowhere
10,098 posts, read 4,062,173 times
Reputation: 7086
Quote:
Originally Posted by CtrlEsc View Post
Comparing just gun crime before and after a gun ban/confiscation is missing the whole picture. You need to compare all violent crime (independent of the tools used.) As has been shown in other threads, the small percentage of the reduction in violent crime in Australia post firearm ban could not be attributed directly to the removal of firearms. The trend was already trending down and it made no significant difference in the trend.

The majority of US firearm deaths are suicides (two-thirds of firearm deaths.) Taking away the tool does not take away the wish to commit suicide. In order to reduce our "Gun Violence" perhaps we should explore opening euthanasia centers.

The second largest category of US firearm deaths can be attributed to inner city crime. Once again, criminals do not follow laws and most do not legally own their firearms.

Comparing one country's statistics to another is not apples to apples. Reporting standards can be different along with the criteria. Each country has different contributing factors (i.e. Australia being an island nation and the US Attorney General selling guns to criminal elements in the next country south that were used to kill US citizens.)

I would agree with the others that you cannot meaningfully compare UK, US, and AU.

Liberals don't care about life. They're the same people who promote physician assisted suicides and abortion.


The last thing in the world they have is some moral high ground they allege to be arguing from.


In other words, they're full of it. Their arguments for "gun control/confiscation/bans" don't amount to dry **** as far as I'm concerned.
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