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View Poll Results: Do you feel the confederate flag has a racist message?
Yes and I am a liberal 43 18.45%
Yes and I am a conservative 9 3.86%
Yes and I am an independent 53 22.75%
No and I am a liberal 13 5.58%
No and I am a conservative 50 21.46%
No and I am an independent 65 27.90%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-15-2017, 11:49 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 2,284,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Irrespective of how they regarded themselves, they signed on to be part of a nation and then levied war against their nation.

If there's some part of the Constitution that defines states is sovereign entities with a voluntary relationship, this would be the time to post it.


They voluntarily joined initially, forming a loose union of sovereign states that at first didnt even have a head of state, and one that was defended by each sovereign state sending its militias to the national defense when needed. In the end the federalist view won out, the national government was strengthened, and then some states chose to leave this union and go their own way as a new nation. Since there was no legal mechanism for doing this, they fought for it.


Just as the colonists waged war on their country to form a separate one.

 
Old 10-15-2017, 11:54 AM
 
51,653 posts, read 25,819,464 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
well, of course they were eligible for federal pensions, they were American soldiers.

...

Plus, The initial tone was set by Lincoln himself in his Second Inaugural address, and reinforced by Grant’s acceptance of Lee’s surrender. For the most part it was a realization that for one Nation to move forward, punishment and reprisal would have only bred animosity.

No, they were not American soldiers. They were Confederate soldiers. They fought against and killed thousands upon thousands of American soldiers.

Lincoln, Grant, and the nation itself bent over backwards in order to heal this horrible wound.

For all the good it did them or us.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,228 posts, read 27,603,964 times
Reputation: 16067
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
No, they were not American soldiers. They were Confederate soldiers. They fought against and killed thousands upon thousands of American soldiers.

Lincoln, Grant, and the nation itself bent over backwards in order to heal this horrible wound.

For all the good it did them or us.
Confederate soldiers were American soldiers.

When the Civil War ended, the vast armies raised by the Federal government were mostly disbanded. The regular army was sent out to patrol the frontiers again. Ex-Confederates could enlist in the regular army, as long as they took the oath of loyalty and behaved themselves. It was hard, dirty work out on the frontier, and there were never enough of them to be a threat to anyone.

Plus, Confederate soldiers were not considered felons, criminals, or rebels after the war ended. They were required to take an oath of loyalty to the Union - and that's all that was ever asked of them.

What do you want? kill them all? gee
 
Old 10-15-2017, 11:59 AM
 
51,653 posts, read 25,819,464 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
They voluntarily joined initially, forming a loose union of sovereign states that at first didnt even have a head of state, and one that was defended by each sovereign state sending its militias to the national defense when needed. In the end the federalist view won out, the national government was strengthened, and then some states chose to leave this union and go their own way as a new nation. Since there was no legal mechanism for doing this, they fought for it.


Just as the colonists waged war on their country to form a separate one.
Colonist waged war against England and formed a nation under a Constitution.

It did indeed have a head of state.

Did your history teachers ever mention Washington by any chance? Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, ... any of these Presidents, i.e. heads of state?

There were 15 heads of state before we got to Abraham Lincoln.

https://www.presidentsusa.net/presvplist.html

Odd that no one ever mentioned this.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:01 PM
 
Location: 404
3,006 posts, read 1,493,228 times
Reputation: 2599
US and Confederate flags are symbols of empire, with empire's usual histories of slavery, genocide, and war.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:04 PM
 
51,653 posts, read 25,819,464 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
Confederate soldiers were American soldiers.

When the Civil War ended, the vast armies raised by the Federal government were mostly disbanded. The regular army was sent out to patrol the frontiers again. Ex-Confederates could enlist in the regular army, as long as they took the oath of loyalty and behaved themselves. It was hard, dirty work out on the frontier, and there were never enough of them to be a threat to anyone.

Plus, Confederate soldiers were not considered felons, criminals, or rebels after the war ended. They were required to take an oath of loyalty to the Union - and that's all that was ever asked of them.

What do you want? kill them all? gee
No. Confederate soldiers were not American soldiers.

If they were American soldiers they would have been in the Union army.

Indeed, the soldiers were required to take an oath of loyalty to the Union. But that didn't make them American soldiers. It made them Americans, and hopefully more loyal this time around.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,228 posts, read 27,603,964 times
Reputation: 16067
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
No. Confederate soldiers were not American soldiers.

If they were American soldiers they would have been in the Union army.

Indeed, the soldiers were required to take an oath of loyalty to the Union. But that didn't make them American soldiers. It made them Americans .
This is somewhat addressed in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. But the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were paroled and sent home. They were considered American soldiers, that is why they were eligible to receive benefits from the military and government. they could enlist in the army afterwards.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Morrison, CO
34,231 posts, read 18,579,444 times
Reputation: 25802
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
No. Confederate soldiers were not American soldiers.

If they were American soldiers they would have been in the Union army.

Indeed, the soldiers were required to take an oath of loyalty to the Union. But that didn't make them American soldiers. It made them Americans, and hopefully more loyal this time around.
What part of CSA, Confederate States of America don't you understand?
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:08 PM
 
51,653 posts, read 25,819,464 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
This is somewhat addressed in Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. But the vast majority of Confederate soldiers were paroled and sent home. They were considered American soldiers, that is why they were eligible to receive benefits from the military and government. they could enlist in the army afterwards.
Which I consider exceedingly generous considering the havoc they wrecked on the nation with their traitorous actions.
 
Old 10-15-2017, 12:14 PM
 
51,653 posts, read 25,819,464 times
Reputation: 37889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
What part of CSA, Confederate States of America don't you understand?
You do know that Confederate States of America is not the same as United States of America, right?

It's why CSA soldiers were required to take a loyalty oath to the USA.

Why the USA provided pensions and benefits for CSA soldiers is somewhat of a mystery.

I suspect it was a way to be kind to some old codgers who got caught up in something they hadn't thought through.

But in no way where they American soldiers. If they had been, they would have been in the Union army.

They were CSA soldiers. Let the CSA provide them with pensions and benefits. That's who they fought for.
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