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Ah, the wage slave argument. And this wage slavery is different how under big government oppression? It isn't, you just have more than one master under your own theory. Libertarian society reduces your masters to those you choose to associate with voluntarily, none of whom possess a monopoly on force, violence and the making/enforcing of law.
Now to your wage slave theory. We are all slaves to our hierarchy of needs, first among them being survival. No getting around our need to survive, then for safety, then etc. You can procure for yourself the water, food, shelter, etc that provides that survival (outdoorsman, off-the-grid survivalist, etc) or you can trade for it. Survival is the master, not the people with whom you trade in order to procure the means of survival. On a desert island, there are no bosses, but survival will still be your master. Watch those shows about the lone person living above the Arctic Circle, the 7 day survival deals like Les Miles, etc. No boss, no time cards, no bank accounts, but Master Survival is always there.
No matter what form of government you have, be it perfect desert island individual liberty or abject totalitarianism, Master Survival demands tribute. Again, you can work for that tribute yourself or you can trade for it. In the libertarian society, you voluntarily trade either your own labor or the fruits thereof for the means of survival. In a totalitarian society, you involuntarily labor to some degree under threat of force/violence, and the trades are made for you ahead of time based on what the controlling power has decided are your survival needs. And all points in between are some sort of shifting on that scale.
I advocate for the society where my labor, my trades and my associations are voluntary and decided by me according to my rational self-interests and needs. You advocate for one where a ruling elite makes all these choices for the masses, takes portions of their labors, taxes their trades and forces their associations and then doles out survival as they see fit in the manner they see fit, under the authority that a monopoly on force and violence have given them.
I like individual liberty models the best. To each their own.
Its not voluntary if you under threat of starvation or homelessness. Libertarian society benefits the masters people who own the capital and disenfranchises working class individuals. Libertarians would make it so public services like schools roads and everything in between be privatized this creates a massive burden on the poor. Libertarian society will lead to serfs and masters.
If that is true of libertarians, it's true that liberals want an all powerful government that has complet control of everyone's lives.
It's an indisputable fact. I know exactly what liberals want just as you know what libertarians want.
But most liberals want to legalize at least some drugs like marijuana and also don't care too much about prostitution like I quoted above.
IMO all political ideologies want to exert some sort of control on the public for their own benefit. Conservatives today want to enforce their own moral code on people. Libertarians want to be bullies without having to worry about any authority punishing them over it.
Libertarianism is about the freedom to screw others. It's really that simple. The Koch Brothers are the epitome of libertarians: they want the freedom to rule in their own interest, without government interference, just like the robber barons of the past.
It's so easy to see through the libertarian agenda for what it really is.
As opposed to getting screwed by the government? Governments are made up of imperfect people.
This is just the rambling of someone who can't consider any philosophy outside of the system they have been under their entire life. You've posted similar threads to this before & you either still don't understand Libertarianism or you are misrepresenting the argument intentionally. If you want to argue that libertarian policies would have that effect, then make that argument. Don't make a complete misrepresentation of what libertarians believe.
Not if you are living paycheck to paycheck because there are no unions rent controls or other protections that help the working class become the middle or upper class!
Unions decrease job opportunities/employment and rely on violence and violation of property rights to accomplish ends.
Rent controls use violence and violate private property rights and decrease available housing.
Increased productivity created the middle class.
Inequality exists, and is not an excuse to punish the successful.
Its not voluntary if you under threat of starvation or homelessness. Libertarian society benefits the masters people who own the capital and disenfranchises working class individuals. Libertarians would make it so public services like schools roads and everything in between be privatized this creates a massive burden on the poor. Libertarian society will lead to serfs and masters.
I agree with the bold.
Will note I've shared on this forum before that I believe that Libertarianism is the opposite of communism and is an extreme form of government that only benefits the wealthy.
Both libertarianism and communism sound good on paper, but we know that communism doesn't work and libertarianism in its strictest sense would also not work - it would lead to a repeat of the French Revolution or other Revolutionary movements where the poor populace gets sick of dealing with the rich minority limiting their opportunities. Libertarianism also ignores the human condition and human emotion and its staunchest supporters see emotion as negative when it is a natural human thing to do/experience and emotion drives the behavior of humanity so it can never be totally ignored. To do so is naive.
Libertarianism (NOT the anarchism in disguise type) sounds great in theory, but falls short in practice. I was considering Libertarianism for a while, after I quit supporting the Republican Party back in the 90s. However, I don't have faith in people to self-regulate. Their social issues part seems fine (gay marriage, drug legalization, prostitution legalization to a degree, pro-choice on abortion, and such). But I can't go along with their economic policies.
Ironically, Libertarians making the same mistake Communists make: thinking that people are basically good - if we just leave people to their own devices, then we'll have a much better world. Unfortunately, both history and my life's experiences do little to justify this assumption. Rather, it's that humans are "give'em and inch and they'll take a mile" types of creatures. They need at least some form of government in order to establish something resemble a safe, stable, and prosperous society.
This was the best post of the threat IMO and I totally agree, especially with the blue. It is why I think both systems have adherents who are naive and not well learned on the history of humanity.
People are not basically "good." I am not a religious person but do believe the simple tenet of Christianity in that all people are sinners. We are all just people and capable of both good and bad and we will always seek out the best option that primarily benefits ourselves and/or our families and /or our communities and not other people. As you note, history and life experiences show this to be true and libertarians for the most part ignore history and the human experience.
You say that the Koch Brothers are not true libertarians, despite their funding of libertarian think tanks like the Cato Institute and the Reason Foundation.
I suppose that the Pope is not a true Catholic, eh?
No I didn't. I said they were not libertarians. Yes, there is a difference in what I said and what you claimed I said. You get too caught up in individuals. Anyone that backed Romney is looking after nothing more than their own personal interests. The Koch brothers will back anyone and anything they see as good for their business interests. All well and fine but they are true believers in themselves, nothing else.
Will note I've shared on this forum before that I believe that Libertarianism is the opposite of communism and is an extreme form of government that only benefits the wealthy.
Both libertarianism and communism sound good on paper, but we know that communism doesn't work and libertarianism in its strictest sense would also not work - it would lead to a repeat of the French Revolution or other Revolutionary movements where the poor populace gets sick of dealing with the rich minority limiting their opportunities. Libertarianism also ignores the human condition and human emotion and its staunchest supporters see emotion as negative when it is a natural human thing to do/experience and emotion drives the behavior of humanity so it can never be totally ignored. To do so is naive.
This is why I am a moderate labor socialist keep capitalism in place but with regulations and strong welfare programs so poverty doesn't become to entrenched.
I like to read 'Civil Disobedience' from time to time. It reminds me of the proverb, 'If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.' Mr. Thoreau clearly had more than just a 'hammer' ~ imho, he had a complete set of 'tools' & knew how to use them wisely.
One of the reasons why we've been as successful as a group of beings here is our ability to create & use tools. We've even learned how to use the 'double-edged sword' i.e. using the appropriate tool for its intended purpose with the understanding that some tools 'cut both ways'. Using a tool for the wrong purpose either doesn't work as intended or can result in the destruction of the tool itself.
I actually used to agree with you here, but government/a ruling class isn't just a tool...unless you'd also say that slavery was just a tool to achieve certain goals, or rape is just a tool for reproducing, or substitute any other non-consensual activity as an example.
I suppose you could put it that way if you want, but if those are tools in your toolbox, I don't think they should be used.
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