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On black males being out of the household for centuries, I don't believe it has the effect that people think it does today in reflecting on history. Black men have always been involved in America as leaders to black people. Black men have always been around. Again, it goes back to the sentiment of the lady from Hampton that I shared. If black men feel that whites have made them unimportant - they are absorbing that dysfunction themselves and they will be unimportant. Not all black men have done this and if we really study black American history from a more "black" perspective, you will see that that is not the case. But I do agree that the social engineering is there; however that social engineering is actually the idea that blacks are inferior (i.e. white supremacy/black inferiority racism). It is something that has continued to be a part of black American's lives. I've shared before on the forum that IMO it is the biggest "issue" we have as a demographic - the psychological damage of believing we are powerless or inferior to whites or need their approval in some way.
Here are my issues with this. I believe you're not being honest about the severity of how things were for blacks in America. I love that you're talking up black people and blackness, but I don't think it does anybody any good to paint a picture that nothing was ever really wrong. If anything you're backing up the claims of some of these white supremacists that say that blacks didn't have it THAT bad. We have to be honest about the damage done, and learn from it. The black family structure has been engineered far too much in this country. We can't talk about the importance of the traditional nuclear family, then turn around and say that it didn't really matter either. Blacks DO have more single parent households, and that's not an insult to blackness. There are obvious external things at play, mainly white supremacy that did this. We can't just act like blacks had complete control over our destinies here in this country.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
But on a more intimate level, there was always a different dynamic in the black family and in the black community. There was a community and leadership structure even within slave families along with free blacks in the ante-bellum period. There was also teamwork and a sense of community and looking out for each other. The underground railroad was started by blacks and primarily administered by black men. That generation IMO is one that is sorely understudied and unknown to black people today as I myself have been amazed even learning about the activities of these, primarily black male activists and their positions and actions in the first half of the 19th century in particular. Frederick Douglass, even though I adore him, was not alone - he was groomed by black men and him leaving the white abolitionists and their touring circles and doing his own thing was due primarily because of the influence of black anti-slavery activists of that era and them counseling him to do his own thing and not be bound to whites because they do not have our best interest at heart (going back to Volo's quote from Douglass - his sentiments in that quote were VERY much a part of black activism of that era).
Again, I appreciate the attempt to talk up the good that some blacks did for family and community, but we can't live in delusion about the white supremacy role in the downfall of the black family structure. All the way up to mass incarceration and adding stipulations to welfare. We can't act like we did this to ourselves.
I remember Trevor Noah said something that really stuck with me. He said that in South Africa, the government/white people basically acknowledged to the people they oppressed that..."yes, we did this to you...you're not crazy...you're not inherently inferior...WE DID THIS". This will never happen in the U.S. People will forever find ways to say it's 100% black people fault, and if you blame whites you're stupid or crazy.
Doesn't answer the question. It's a KNOWN fact that children from single parent homes experience poverty at significantly higher rates. So WHY are 72.2% of Black children born to single mothers? Is the INTENTIONAL goal to live in poverty and have one's children live in poverty, as well? Because, otherwise, you'd think they'd take steps to curb that rate.
Given that the rate is 29% for whites, you need to stop asking why its 72% for blacks. The only % that needs an explanation is 43%, since obviously the "STANDARD" is set by whites 29% and hence the deviation from the "STANDARD" is 43. That deviation from the standard HAPPENED DURING AND BECAUSE OF THE RACIAL OPPRESSION OF BLACKS. That divination from the standard is actually declining, as the rate of single births rise faster among whites than blacks the last 50 years.
Now....that is the sound of the tree falling in the forest.....does it make a sound?
It's true that monogamous marriage was not part of the culture in the parts of Africa where African-American slaves came from. But it's also true that by 1960, white cultural norms imposed on blacks in this country produced huge changes such that only 20% of black kids were born outside of marriage. The Great Society undid all those social incentives and replaced them with incentives to have children outside of marriage.
So, yes, the Great Society destroyed the black family.
Wait a minute...
So "white cultural norms" were imposed on Black families by 1960ies, but what about "Sexual revolution" in America?
Why do you conveniently skip this part and go straight to blaming some "Great society" programs?
Because if "sexual revolution" was a new "white cultural norm," what would you want Blacks to do?
To stay in "faithful marriages," while the Whites can do whatever they are pleased, starting with WHITE feminists?
The next question that comes to mind - what society was lacking "monogamous marriage" to begin with - African or European?
And if it was lacking in Africa, (according to you,) then who was taking care of children back there?
And if it were Black women, then who is more suitable to be in charge of the family in the US - women of African descent or women of European descent?
Too bad Moynihan didn't do a little more research of his own.
Yes, black were deep into poverty in 1965. But their poverty was even worse just after WWII - something Moynihan was unaware of. Blacks had been steadily working their way OUT of that horrific poverty during the entire period. Thy still had a long way to go before equaling the prosperity of other races, but they had made a lot of progress. And all without the slightest help from government.
Then the "help" that Moynihan was crying for, got enacted... and the progress blacks were making came to a screeching halt.
African slaves came from over 45 ethnicities/cultures. Which cultures did not have monogamous marriage and which ones did? African cultures vary so be specific.
There was no such thing as the black family. There was no such thing as black people when Africans were brought here. There were Igbo families and Igbo traditions. Yoruba families and Yoruba traditions. Ashanti families and Ashanti traditions etc.
Whether monogamous marriage existed also depended on the religion of the African. Among those that were Muslim, polygamy was permitted, though not always practiced.
The breakdown of African ethnic traditions caused what is seen today. Out of wedlock marriage in Nigeria, for example, is lower than that of White America and the U.S. on a whole. The forced loss of culture in slavery and becoming "black" rather than retaining ethnic traditions destroyed African descended families in the U.S. and across the Americas.
Yet around 1960 70% of blacks came from 2 parent families, now it's 30 percent. So you're saying society as well as laws are more racist now? Slavery has a greater influence now thean in 1960? Quit playing the race card.
Marriage is a social construct. A man being allowed to have only one wife is also a social construct enforced by law. The only thing biological and a prime directive by nature is sexual intercourse between a man and a women. Societies have had success with all different types of arrangements. Success meaning that the children, the product of intercourse, were well taken care of and had both male and female role models.
The issue is really not marriage, but providing offspring with what they need to survive and prosper. Women traditionally raise the children. Men, traditionally, provide and protect so that the women can raise the children. Whatever the arrangements between men and women where, whether the man had several wives or a single wife, the children were always looked after and uncles and or elder men took a role in raising young boys and women raised young girls.
In many traditional African societies today, the language of family is different. In such societies, my brothers kids are considered my sons and daughters. An older person that is unrelated is refereed to as your Uncle or Auntie, or Father or mother. There are no words in these languages for concepts like "Step son", "Step mother", "Step Father", "Step brother", "Half brother" etc. In traditional African societies, everyone in the village is seen an refereed to as family, regardless of how "Marriage" is defined. Kids are looked after by the community/village.
In America and the West, gender roles have changed. The glue holding the social construct of marriage together has been gender roles and dependency. Women were dependent upon a man financially and for protection. If a women wanted to be successful, she had to marry a successful man. Over time, in the West, women gradually became less dependent upon men for marriage as a means of success and protection. Now, marriage is simply advanced dating to carry on a tradition. Given that women are less dependent upon men, there is not much glue to keep a marriage together when the marriage gets old or the man cheats. In the past women had to put up with whatever a man did because they were financially dependent. Today, divorce is much more common and accepted and the reason is born from the same phenomenon of why people are less inclined to get married.
I say that to say that as a general rule, the structure of the traditional family in the West has declined because gender roles has changed. Women are not dependent upon men as much and without that dependency marriage do not form or are not held together like they used to. That having been said, white males still have the most power and income in this society, much more so than the white women. That makes marriage stronger in the white community because the women is still dependent upon the white man to "reach the top" and live the best lifestyle. In the black community its different because the black man has the least economic power in this society. The fear of the black man has led to his suppression in this society and impeded his ability to be the dominant provider in the black community, which places a big strain on marriage.
You have to consider first that society in general is declining relative to the traditional family. Then on top of that you have to look at what racial oppression has done to the black family and the two of those things together explains the current condition of the black family.
Yet in 1960 over twice as many blacks stayed married compared to day, So according to you it's more racist today? Anytime you give someone money they will take it. That's what welfare does. Makes one more dependant on government handouts.
A majority of your post is factless opinion and not reality.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
As noted by the OP, black families have never been typical of white families in America due in part to the enslavement of black families and the inability to have "in tact" families for hundreds of years. FWIW even "free" blacks were much less likely prior to 1860 to live in homes with "in tact" families.
Also, I wonder in regards to the OP and the discussion, why such a focus on family structure of blacks only when those of whites has been "destroyed" to a greater extent since the late 1970s to today. If all the ails that one believes exists amongst black families were truly caused by single parenting, why have these ails not become much more pressing for white families and children in the 21st century considering the rates at which this increased for whites since 1965 is greater than it has for blacks?
Oftentimes when these discussions come up, they are not based on the fact that all statistical measures of blacks in America have increase in a positive way in the 21st century versus the 20th century.
This is more to do with the decrease of over racial oppression (systematic racism) than family structure. Black families in America have always done well even when heavily oppressed. Social welfare programs excluded blacks for decades after they began and even after blacks were admitted into them, that time period of the mid 1960s coincided with the climax of the Civil Rights Movement and the decreases of systematic racism. As a result education attainment improved for blacks as did employment opportunities. On crime metrics, the 1970s through early 1990s was the highest amount of crime ever recorded in America and that coincided with those of us born durng that generation to black single mothers being the highest percentage of black children born to single mothers. Yet we are much better off on a variety of factors versus our parents. FWIW I was born out of wedlock but both of my parents were not - neither of my parents finished high school - I have a master's degree - neither of my parents made much money while I was growing up and really didn't until they were near or past 40 years old. I made more than they did in my 20s. My story as a black American of my generation is similar to the majority of all other blacks in this country. We are much better off today statistically than our parents generation were. So how do you all reconcile these facts?
Of course your story isn't similar to a majority of blacks today. What an absurd statement. The road to success, of getting to middle class or higher is based on 3 things, finish high school, work fulltime, and dont' get married and have kids until you're 21.
All you did was give one example, which was to brag about yourself, and then say that's what happens to a majority of blacks.
The reason people are better off today is technology. The reason people are worse off today is welfare.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
IMO many of you ignore them due to enjoying thinking about and obsessing over black people being "at-risk" but you never look at the facts of what is occurring with the vast majority of the population.
And a vast majority of the population, no matter what their skin color is, will have a much harder time coming from a single parent family. Common sense, reason, and logic tells us that.
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
I'll write a separate post below, but Indentured Servant is/was right in regards to a decrease in marriage being due to the fact that women no longer see a need to have a man for financial purposes or protection all the time.
becasue government welfare will take care of them
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Originally Posted by residinghere2007
However, women still want to get married overwhelmingly and most women will - even black women will - at one point in their lives. Black women in particular get married at later ages than white women. By age 40 about 70% of black women will have been married at least once in her life and the average age of the first marriage is 30-31 years old, white women's average age is lower, last time I checked in was 25 to 26 years old.
I think that many of you like to focus on black people because you like to "problemize" us without looking at the actual facts of the situation.
You don't use any facts. The fact is obvious, when you give people handouts, they'll take them. Explain how all other races/groups have a higher chance of failure coming from a single parent family than a two parent family. it's not just a problem for blacks. It's a problem for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
Black people and women like white people in general and white women in this country, we all have seen (if we pay attention) the fact that gender roles in our country have changed and this is the reason for higher out of wedlock birthrates and more divorces today. Women are not dependent on men like they used to be and have a choice of whether to include men whose behavior they do not want to accept as a part of their lives, either remain in their lives or if they want to leave them. Women can chose to be mothers without having a husband. Social norms and gender roles have changed. This is nothing really to do with black people having our families "destroyed" lol.
On that topic, black families cannot be destroyed as a family is a family no matter the structure. As noted above and during this thread blacks have always had less traditional husband/wife families, alway at least two times as many single parent lead families. This has not changed really since 1880.
A good summation of this is included in real sociological studies. One that provides a good background and statistical review of the black family from 1850 to 1980 is The Origins of the African American Family Structure published in the American Sociological Review by Steven Ruggles.
You made that up.
So explain why single parent families went from 30% to 70% in ~50 years since blacks have less traditional values? Seems like when 70% stay together that is traditional value. So when they were traditional, they wer faking it?
Again it has nothing to do with skin color. When you give someone handouts, they'll take it.
In the 1960s two times as many black children were born to single mothers versus white women. The difference in percentage is the same today as it was then and per previous post has been the same in regards to that percentage gap since the 1880s.
That is indisputable.
And it's gotten worse with welfare. That is indisputable. It's about government handouts.
Last edited by Loveshiscountry; 11-02-2017 at 03:41 AM..
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Of course your story isn't similar to a majority of blacks today. What an absurd statement. The road to success, of getting to middle class or higher is based on 3 things, finish high school, work fulltime, and dont' get married and have kids until you're 21. 
