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Christian nationalists can cherry-pick quotes from the Founding Fathers to promote their agenda of turning our government into a theocracy and likewise those who want a secular state have plenty of material to pull from. I personally believe that it's impossible to say "the founding fathers believed this" because there was a greater diversity in belief on religion's role in government in the late 18th century than people on both sides of the argument today want to admit.
However, what does matter is what our founding documents actually say. In 1776 there was no reason to be politically correct so if the founders wanted a Christian society, they could have easily put it in our Constitution. However, here is what we have.
Declaration of Independence: Reference to "nature's God" and a generic "Creator" but no reference to Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, the Church, or anything related specifically to Christianity.
Constitution: It bans religious tests to hold public office. It also guarantees freedom of religion and prevents laws pertaining to establishment of religion. Once again, no mention of Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, etc, etc. The Constitution doesn't even use the word "God."
Articles of Confederation: Also doesn't mention God, the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, etc, etc. It makes one reference to religion, in article III where it says "The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever."
This is not to say that the culture of our country hasn't been heavily influenced by Christianity because it has. However, our nation's laws are not bound to Christianity or its rules and if that is what the founders intended, it would say so in our founding documents.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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If the founders wanted a Christian nation, why doesn't our founding documents say so?
Because a Christian nation wasn't their intent.
In the words of three of them:
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."
- Benjamin Franklin
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."
- Thomas Paine
If the founders wanted a Christian nation, why doesn't our founding documents say so?
Because a Christian nation wasn't their intent.
True, but try convincing today's Republican Party of that. It's pretty much established fact among conservatives that we were once a Judeo-Christian nation and only since the sexual revolution of the 1960s have we moved away from that.
I will give them that we were once a much more culturally Christian nation and that Christianity once played a much greater role in public life than it does today, but we have never been a "Christian nation" in the sense that conservatives believe we were. For instance, they argue that the Obergefell decision (gay marriage) should be overturned because it contradicts God's definition of marriage, but our nation has never officially been bound to the laws of the Bible. If we were, it would say so in our founding documents.
Location: The Land Mass Between NOLA and Mobile, AL
1,796 posts, read 1,662,111 times
Reputation: 1411
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618
Christian nationalists can cherry-pick quotes from the Founding Fathers to promote their agenda of turning our government into a theocracy and likewise those who want a secular state have plenty of material to pull from. I personally believe that it's impossible to say "the founding fathers believed this" because there was a greater diversity in belief on religion's role in government in the late 18th century than people on both sides of the argument today want to admit.
However, what does matter is what our founding documents actually say. In 1776 there was no reason to be politically correct so if the founders wanted a Christian society, they could have easily put it in our Constitution. However, here is what we have.
Declaration of Independence: Reference to "nature's God" and a generic "Creator" but no reference to Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, the Church, or anything related specifically to Christianity.
Constitution: It bans religious tests to hold public office. It also guarantees freedom of religion and prevents laws pertaining to establishment of religion. Once again, no mention of Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, etc, etc. The Constitution doesn't even use the word "God."
Articles of Confederation: Also doesn't mention God, the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, etc, etc. It makes one reference to religion, in article III where it says "The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever."
This is not to say that the culture of our country hasn't been heavily influenced by Christianity because it has. However, our nation's laws are not bound to Christianity or its rules and if that is what the founders intended, it would say so in our founding documents.
What you have written is the truth. Many of the founders were Deists.
If the founders wanted a Christian nation, why doesn't our founding documents say so?
Because a Christian nation wasn't their intent.
In the words of three of them:
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."
- Benjamin Franklin
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics."
- Thomas Paine
All true, but from what I am seeing, the Christian Right is not particularly powerful these days in the Republican mix. Hard core Trump supporters are not (in general) from the Christian Right. For the most part they are hedonists just like Trump.
All true, but from what I am seeing, the Christian Right is not particularly powerful these days in the Republican mix. Hard core Trump supporters are not (in general) from the Christian Right. For the most part they are hedonists just like Trump.
In the South it is. Otherwise, people like Roy Moore in Alabama or Dan Fisher in Oklahoma wouldn't even be relevant. Also, Trump received the largest turnout among evangelical voters in history, so the Christian Right is a huge force behind Trumpism, even if it doesn't make up the entirety of Trump's base. It is a very significant part of it.
Christian nationalists can cherry-pick quotes from the Founding Fathers to promote their agenda of turning our government into a theocracy and likewise those who want a secular state have plenty of material to pull from. I personally believe that it's impossible to say "the founding fathers believed this" because there was a greater diversity in belief on religion's role in government in the late 18th century than people on both sides of the argument today want to admit.
However, what does matter is what our founding documents actually say. In 1776 there was no reason to be politically correct so if the founders wanted a Christian society, they could have easily put it in our Constitution. However, here is what we have.
Declaration of Independence: Reference to "nature's God" and a generic "Creator" but no reference to Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, the Church, or anything related specifically to Christianity.
Constitution: It bans religious tests to hold public office. It also guarantees freedom of religion and prevents laws pertaining to establishment of religion. Once again, no mention of Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, etc, etc. The Constitution doesn't even use the word "God."
Articles of Confederation: Also doesn't mention God, the Bible, Jesus, Christianity, etc, etc. It makes one reference to religion, in article III where it says "The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever."
This is not to say that the culture of our country hasn't been heavily influenced by Christianity because it has. However, our nation's laws are not bound to Christianity or its rules and if that is what the founders intended, it would say so in our founding documents.
You do understand that there is a difference between "wanting a Christian nation" and wanting a nation whose laws and values are based in Christian ideology and culture......
Right?
I'm about as agnostic a person as you will find any place and I'm fine with our laws and culture being based on Christian values.
True, but try convincing today's Republican Party of that. It's pretty much established fact among conservatives that we were once a Judeo-Christian nation and only since the sexual revolution of the 1960s have we moved away from that.
I will give them that we were once a much more culturally Christian nation and that Christianity once played a much greater role in public life than it does today, but we have never been a "Christian nation" in the sense that conservatives believe we were. For instance, they argue that the Obergefell decision (gay marriage) should be overturned because it contradicts God's definition of marriage, but our nation has never officially been bound to the laws of the Bible. If we were, it would say so in our founding documents.
Yes, I have a number of Republican relatives who seem to believe that the Constitutional Convention was a Southern Baptist convention. And woe unto you if you try to reason with any of them on that point. They also believe that Obama is an ISIS supporting Muslim from Kenya.
A correct understanding of Christianity means you can't force people to be Christians... God controls that.
You can put many of the principles into play, which they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618
In the South it is. Otherwise, people like Roy Moore in Alabama or Dan Fisher in Oklahoma wouldn't even be relevant. Also, Trump received the largest turnout among evangelical voters in history, so the Christian Right is a huge force behind Trumpism, even if it doesn't make up the entirety of Trump's base. It is a very significant part of it.
I don't think there is a Christian right... as much as there is an anti-Christian left, that moves many Christians to the right.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,400,252 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatBob96
You do understand that there is a difference between "wanting a Christian nation" and wanting a nation whose laws and values are based in Christian ideology and culture......
Right?
I'm about as agnostic a person as you will find any place and I'm fine with our laws and culture being based on Christian values.
As long as it's not a state mandated religion.
What I wonder is when did Jesus preach the accumulation of material goods as a noble life goal?
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