Multiculturalism, what's ur take? (fast food, generations, legal, polls)

[thecuban]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

Why?? Many countries around the world have multiple languages, like Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, and so forth... if you've traveled internationally, you'll know they have signs in multiple languages, and tons of people who speak more than one. I've been to many non-English speaking countries, and could always find plenty of people & businesses that offered my language! And in Belgium, they practically had a different language on every block, in ADDITION to English. As long as new citizens/residents try to learn English, I don't have too much of a problem with this. And while we're at it, teaching native speakers to use proper spelling and grammar wouldn't hurt.



What holidays are you referring to? Most of your Christian holidays are basically considered "national holidays" as it is, so what more could you be asking for? Last I heard, nobody was trying to outlaw Christmas, Easter, or even Thanksgiving... but also, you have to accept that not everybody will celebrate the same holidays.



Sure, can't argue with that... though you'd have to be more specific for me to discuss this fully!



Yeah, you will get slack for this, because it's pretty intolerant... I'm an American - born, raised, and proud of it - but also a Jew. So are you implying that I'm not a real American, or just that I should acknowledge Christianity as our "official" religion? Or are you suggesting that I should abandon my religion altogether, and convert? Either way, it's not right... especially considering our founders introduced the idea of "separation of church & state". This is a Christian-dominated country, but that doesn't mean we can't accept & tolerate those of other religions too! Christians already completely run this country, so what else would you like us to do? Paint billboards on the freeway, stating that we accept you as our leaders?? You already get days off for your holidays, services, decorations, music, animal characters, candy, etc. So tell me what else we can do to "respect and recognize" your almighty power! I'm getting silly here, but you get my point hopefully. Btw, I'm spending two nights of Chanukah next week performing in Christmas concerts (I'm a musician) at churches. Now if that isn't respect.... LOL.

That's pretty much how I feel about "multiculturalism" as well... while I agree some of our government leaders go overboard, there is an important basic message. We are a country of diverse people, whether or not anyone likes it, and that is not going to change. So why not embrace other cultures and encorporate them into our society? That doesn't mean we have to abandon basic principles of the US, but it doesn't hurt to have a wider variety of beliefs and people. I'm sure we've already expanded a LOT on the founding father's ideas, and this country will always be evolving & changing... it's just natural progression. Anyway, why would you possibly be annoyed/maddened by having to learn about others? I was an Ethnic studies minor in college, and I found those classes to be fascinating and enlightening.

We are talking about culture correct? Why would I go to Israel and tell them they should change there culture or Insist that they talk English or change there core belief. America is grown to be a melting pot of different cultures and they live freely within our wonderful Country. Why should we change and accommodate every language there is. I don't see banks with a Hebrew interpretor by the way. I see them ready to accommodate Spanish only. By the way I major in 47 years of life here in America. I am a Cuban that speaks English, Spanish and a little Italian.. I go to my mothers and I talked to her in Spanish eat Cuban food and play domino's. I go to my wifes parents house and we do the Italian thing. We have all gone through the naturalization process that have been born elsewhere.. Although my wife and I love our own nationality we live in America and do not expect any special treatment or want to impose our beliefs upon Americans. We live in America and we must respect the founders and there core beliefs which in turn makes up our American culture. If I did not believe in America and which it stands and I wished that everybody should embrace my Cuban heritage I shouldn't be here. There is always Cuba!!!

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by thecuban

I don't see banks with a Hebrew interpretor by the way. I see them ready to accommodate Spanish only.

As Gizmo said, there are a lot of countries with multiple languages. I think you would have to admit that Spanish is our unofficial second-language. Even back in the early 1970s in Santa Barbara, we were taught Spanish in grade school. It's all about the numbers. We have tens of millions in this nation who speak Spanish and we border a Spanish-speaking nation from which the majority of our immigrants come. It makes sense to honor Spanish as a semi-official language here. Hebrew? It's extremely rare for someone to show up in the USA knowing Hebrew without knowing English. Might as well toss in Laotian and Greek --- there's no comparison because the numbers don't warrant an effort to make large-scale adaptations to those languages. It's not a judgment of one being better than another, it's simply pragmatic.

And you're right, Spanish-speaking people are better off learning English. It's a bit odd that Mexico doesn't have a massive literacy program to teach their poor how to speak English, it would improve their economy far beyond what it would cost to implement such a program. But the Mexican government has never been accused of being rational, far-sighted or ethical.

Originally Posted by thecuban

We live in America and we must respect the founders and there core beliefs which in turn makes up core of the American culture.

Why must we respect the Founders? Well, I do, for what they did in that time and place, but this is now, and things constantly change everywhere. Little of their world applies to our current lives. And don't forget that they committed genocide in order to impose English upon the land that we now call "ours."

Thank you for being so respectful of the USA. You're a true patriot, probably far more than I am. I hope you understand my contrary point of view and are not insulted by it. I have no idea what your life has been like but I know you've had to work harder than I have and I have to respect you for that.

[dullnboring]

Multicultrualism is such an abstract concept that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be either a supporter or an opponent of it. Even reading through this thread and reading all of those who are against it, I haven't been able to deduce what exactly it is that they're striking out against. The only thing I've been able to get out of it is that people don't like hearing other languages or seeing documents written in them. What specifically are opponents of multiculturalism opposing and how would they even go about changing whatever it is that they disagree with?

As much as I don't want to enter into political debates on this board, and will probably jump ship after this, I do have to say that in many instances the concept of multiculturalism that people seem to be striking out against, goes hand in hand with capitalism. When seeing such large numbers of people in this country who even if they DO speak English, are more comfortable speaking another language whether it be Spanish (the most likely), Cantonese, Russian or Korean, it would serve a company's bottom line better to try to include these groups to broaden their customer base. There will always be small local banks, grocery stores, insurance companies and such that will cater specifically to an ethnic community as there always have been in this country when the chief immigrants spoke German, Italian and Swedish. Wanting to be competitive, it makes sense for larger companies to expand their market by making an effort to include these people in their networks through various means, including on-site translators or signs/forms, etc. in multipile languages.

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by dullnboring

Multicultrualism is such an abstract concept that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be either a supporter or an opponent of it.

Outstanding post, not-so-dull-or-boring! I'll give my interpretation of what I think people object to.

Multiculturalism is an ism --- in other words, it has become a sacred ideology in academia and trickled down into public schools and much of public life. This is what bothers people and it's hard for them to put their finger on it. I'll give an example of something that specifically bothers me: cultural relativism. This is a nice idea in theory, to say that cultures are all just cultures (many of my posts on this forum are rooted in relativism), but here's an example of something I don't like and I think it's a commonly shared view...

There is a tacit acceptance among many in academia, and increasingly throughout the intelligencia, that we cannot judge another culture's practices. Specific examples would include female circumcision and the insistence by some strict Islamic cultures that women stay in the home and not leave unless covered from head to toe. When our academic progressives led the battle against Apartheid we didn't hear this cry for "multicultural acceptance" as a justification for segregation by race, yet we do currently hear that we should accept many practices by other cultures on the simple basis that it's part of their culture.

I believe these extreme examples are what lie at the root of people's discomfort with the concept of multiculturalism. We do not want to be told that everything is fine as long as it's embedded in a culture. Our own cultural history is one of genocide and imperialism, and I, for one, do not accept that as being legitimate in this time and place. The fact that it's our cultural heritage doesn't make it "right." The fact that some other culture likes to oppress women doesn't make THAT right, either.

[thecuban]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

Irony is exhibited in the posts by thecuban. Need an explanation of what I mean? Bah!

Irony? Yes explain!!!


You Quoted: Eventually it all crumbles and things change. In the long run there is no trace of our self-righteous claim to being right. Just as the Himalayas will one day be part of the bottom of the ocean, so will new mountain ranges rise where none now exist. So it is with human societies and cultures.[/quote]

So what are you saying? We might as well just skip the evolving and go straight to one world order. Bah!

[deeptrance]

Originally Posted by thecuban

Irony? Yes explain!!!

I apologize. My comment was about the fact that your posts were espousing the view that we should all learn proper English and your posts were full of grammatical and spelling errors. But that's unfair of me because you're using English as your second language (I assume) so I apologize for being elitist and rude in my response.

Originally Posted by thecuban

You Quoted: Eventually it all crumbles and things change....
So what are you saying? We might as well just skip the evolving and go straight to one world order. Bah!

That is not my intention at all. You are quoting me out of context and making inferences that are not accurate. But I deserve it because I disrespected you.

Thanks for staying with this thread and not allowing people like me to chase you away. I hope you saw the positive comments I made to you in a more recent post above.

[dullnboring]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

There is a tacit acceptance among many in academia, and increasingly throughout the intelligencia, that we cannot judge another culture's practices. Specific examples would include female circumcision and the insistence by some strict Islamic cultures that women stay in the home and not leave unless covered from head to toe. When our academic progressives led the battle against Apartheid we didn't hear this cry for "multicultural acceptance" as a justification for segregation by race, yet we do currently hear that we should accept many practices by other cultures on the simple basis that it's part of their culture.

I believe these extreme examples are what lie at the root of people's discomfort with the concept of multiculturalism. We do not want to be told that everything is fine as long as it's embedded in a culture. Our own cultural history is one of genocide and imperialism, and I, for one, do not accept that as being legitimate in this time and place. The fact that it's our cultural heritage doesn't make it "right." The fact that some other culture likes to oppress women doesn't make THAT right, either.

I understand all of that, but the thing is, that's not happening in this country. Regardless of what the laws and cultures may dictate of the country of origin of immigrants coming into this country, when they get here, female genital mutilation is still illegal, spousal abuse is still illegal, racial discrimination is still illegal, freedom of speech is still protected, freedom of religion is still protected, freedom of the press is still protected, etc. I don't really see us bending over backwards to change things in this country to accomodate completely different cultures. There are some cultural issues and linguistic issues as you'd find in any country dealing with immigration but it's not like we're on the brink of implementing sharia law out of political correctness. I just don't see whatever this concept of multiculturalism is as being such a massive threat that is positioning our country on the brink of anarchic chaos, dividing into a series of ethnic factions as other people seem to portray. I guess it all goes back to the fact that I'm not even sure what it is that people exactly are opposing and how they would alter whatever it is that they're against.

[ColdCanadian]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

Why must we respect the Founders?

Well, I do, for what they did in that time and place, but this is now, and things constantly change everywhere. Little of their world applies to our current lives. And don't forget that they committed genocide in order to impose English upon the land that we now call "ours."

I wouldn't say everyone should respect the Founders openly, but disrespecting them openly would at minimum break many people's hearts.

Why stay in Disney World if you don't like amusement rides or cartoon characters?

I've heard strange and unfortunate things like schools named after George Washington "had" to change their name recently because coincidentally, he happened to own slaves. Everything else he did doesn't matter to some because of that one point.

[thecuban]

Originally Posted by deeptrance

As Gizmo said, there are a lot of countries with multiple languages. I think you would have to admit that Spanish is our unofficial second-language. Even back in the early 1970s in Santa Barbara, we were taught Spanish in grade school. It's all about the numbers. We have tens of millions in this nation who speak Spanish and we border a Spanish-speaking nation from which the majority of our immigrants come. It makes sense to honor Spanish as a semi-official language here. Hebrew? It's extremely rare for someone to show up in the USA knowing Hebrew without knowing English. Might as well toss in Laotian and Greek --- there's no comparison because the numbers don't warrant an effort to make large-scale adaptations to those languages. It's not a judgment of one being better than another, it's simply pragmatic.

And you're right, Spanish-speaking people are better off learning English. It's a bit odd that Mexico doesn't have a massive literacy program to teach their poor how to speak English, it would improve their economy far beyond what it would cost to implement such a program. But the Mexican government has never been accused of being rational, far-sighted or ethical.Why must we respect the Founders? Well, I do, for what they did in that time and place, but this is now, and things constantly change everywhere. Little of their world applies to our current lives. And don't forget that they committed genocide in order to impose English upon the land that we now call "ours."

Thank you for being so respectful of the USA. You're a true patriot, probably far more than I am. I hope you understand my contrary point of view and are not insulted by it. I have no idea what your life has been like but I know you've had to work harder than I have and I have to respect you for that.

Thank you for the last comment. I appreciate it. I feel fortunate to be here in America.
About Spanish and there numbers I feel it should not make a difference. Listen I know what I say might not be so popular with many but its a form of respect to appreciate America's roots. The debate is not that we should worship America and its culture but respect its roots. We live free here no matter what. Why should we not honor America for what it is and who encouraged it to be what it is? Its not the people that have been living here all their lives that are wanting to change America for the most part. Its the immigrants that have fled their country for some reason or another and not willing to conform to our way of life. They try to emboss there beliefs on us and change America. Can you not see what's happening to Europe? They have a mess in there hands.

[thecuban]

[quote=ColdCanadian;203408]I wouldn't say everyone should respect the Founders openly, but disrespecting them openly would at minimum break

Thank you!! I agree totaly!