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Your right I forgot to include the liberals. By the way slavery was not invented by the Americans. Also America was the the first lift those bonds.
I don't know if anyone here knows who started slavery, (I don't) but it was probably an old concept before the ancient Egyptians enslaved the Jews.
I just put the last post in because I've heard quite a few times people complain about changes for mysterious reasons in North America and assume it's because of the greater portions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddists etc.
I hate to see people get unfairly complained about.
I think I heard that England actually got rid of slavery slightly earlier. But at least I know America wasn't one of the last. I hear they still have slavery in places like Sudan, strange enough.
At that time there were several European Empires. That's one of the reasons why there are so many languages in the Carribbean, South America (Spanish and Portugese) and Africa. All of these Empires had slavery and all of the European Empires eventually got rid of it and/or dissolved. I heard of at least one of them doing so as early as the 1820's to 1830's.
Last edited by ColdCanadian; 12-10-2006 at 08:34 PM..
I still don't see what it is that people are against and what exactly are their solutions to this "problem". As I said, the only thing that I can get out of this is that people don't like seeing or hearing other languages. Okay, well then what do you recommend be done to stop this? You can't force people to speak English when they're out and about. You can mandate that official documents and signage be in English only but what will that really accomplish? How will that really force people to learn English?
I don't have a problem with multiculturalism.
I don't see how making all documents in one or two languages to be "unfair."
We have plenty of government funding for English as a second language which probably is free to anyone. We strongly encourage immigrants to learn one of our two local languages. It's not really forcing anyone to learn per say. We have probably over 100 ethnic groups around and for the most part, people are very willing to learn English. If not, then they're content to stay in their own community.
I think it's fair to require a basic English comprehension (in an English predominant area) to be able to drive. Maybe in the U.S. Southwest, an area traditionally bi-lingual to have bi-lingual tests, signs etc.
It's neccessary that the driver be able to understand what a police officer might ask them if they get pulled over, or even to read important signs, like for highway construction, detours etc. Sometimes for driving it could be a safety hazard to not be able certain road signs.
Our government freely gives a little more money to Quebec than other places (as the rumours say) but they aren't trying to make the rest of us speak French and we aren't trying to make them English.
We have bi-lingual signs in my part of Canada but other than that its 100% English. The people who don't want to speak it isolate themselves into their own ethnic communities.
I guess the difference is we're different, but at the moment we just don't care. It's almost irrelevant.
Sorry I had to pick on Canada on that one So, you must live in Ontario I'm assuming? Wouldn't the people there be concerned if millions of uneducated poor people flooded Ontario every year, didn't speak English and took up residence in your community? I say this because this is what is happening in every western state. Quebec is a different case because the French happened to be there before the English showed up. You've had a couple hundred years to settle differences. Well, the thing is that I have friends here in MI that are Canadian and from what I've read and heard about the Quebec situation over the years, the people in Quebec want to be a separate nation and that this is a very delicate political issue in Canada. Didn't Conan O'Brien commit a gaffe a few years ago because he cracked some joke about this without realizing the delicate situation? Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Sorry I had to pick on Canada on that one So, you must live in Ontario I'm assuming? Wouldn't the people there be concerned if millions of uneducated poor people flooded Ontario every year, didn't speak English and took up residence in your community? I say this because this is what is happening in every western state. Quebec is a different case because the French happened to be there before the English showed up. You've had a couple hundred years to settle differences. Well, the thing is that I have friends here in MI that are Canadian and from what I've read and heard about the Quebec situation over the years, the people in Quebec want to be a separate nation and that this is a very delicate political issue in Canada. Didn't Conan O'Brien commit a gaffe a few years ago because he cracked some joke about this without realizing the delicate situation? Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Some French Canadians want to separate, some don't care and still some actually love Canada for what it is. At the moment it's not a hot button issue that I'm aware of. About 10-15 years ago, there were serious talks about this though. They had a "Referendum" which was a kind of vote, but I was a kid so I don't remember the details.
Yes, that kind of immigration would overwhelm us, but there isn't enough work openings available in Ontario to warrant millions of unskilled people who can't speak English to move here. Our public schools would still only teach in English (or a few in Ontario teach French) and I don't think illegal immigrants are allowed much or any welfare. I'm also unaware if illegal immigrants are allowed to attend public school. My highschool didn't even offer Spanish as an extra credit course. We have plenty of legal immigrants who get frustrated here however.
I also forgot that practically all of our immigrants arrive by plane, so obviously they have to have some money. U.S./Canadian border security in southern Ontario is very tight. We're pretty much a peninsula and bridges or boats are the only way to the U.S.
I do know of private Islamic schools that might teach in Arabic and English. Private schools cost extra $$$.
Last edited by ColdCanadian; 12-10-2006 at 08:50 PM..
Yeah, I didn't mean it as a knock on Canada. In fact, I was just in Ontario in October for the first time (I'm from WA, but living in MI now) and I loved it. Hung out in Toronto and went to Niagra Falls--both of which were pretty awesome. I'm sure I'll be back when the weather warms up. Thanks for the history lesson!
Multicultrualism is such an abstract concept that I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be either a supporter or an opponent of it. Even reading through this thread and reading all of those who are against it, I haven't been able to deduce what exactly it is that they're striking out against. The only thing I've been able to get out of it is that people don't like hearing other languages or seeing documents written in them. What specifically are opponents of multiculturalism opposing and how would they even go about changing whatever it is that they disagree with?
This was basically my point, though it was apparently misunderstood by some. I never said we should change our country, but rather that we need to stop whining about having different cultures here... so what if people speak Spanish as their primary language? It doesn't bother me, and I just can't understand how it could. English is still our official language, and will likely remain so in our lifetimes... so no harm done. How does it affect anyone here, if the bankers speak 2 languages, and offer others as an option on the ATM machine? Our banks actually have machines that offer English, Spanish, Chinese, and Hmong - those most commonly spoken in this area. Is it really that confusing to people, that they can't identify their own language? Otherwise, I'm still not getting why it matters...
We are talking about culture correct? Why would I go to Israel and tell them they should change there culture or Insist that they talk English or change there core belief. America is grown to be a melting pot of different cultures and they live freely within our wonderful Country. Why should we change and accommodate every language there is. I don't see banks with a Hebrew interpretor by the way. I see them ready to accommodate Spanish only. By the way I major in 47 years of life here in America. I am a Cuban that speaks English, Spanish and a little Italian.. I go to my mothers and I talked to her in Spanish eat Cuban food and play domino's. I go to my wifes parents house and we do the Italian thing. We have all gone through the naturalization process that have been born elsewhere.. Although my wife and I love our own nationality we live in America and do not expect any special treatment or want to impose our beliefs upon Americans. We live in America and we must respect the founders and there core beliefs which in turn makes up our American culture. If I did not believe in America and which it stands and I wished that everybody should embrace my Cuban heritage I shouldn't be here. There is always Cuba!!!
You missed my point completely... see the above post for an explanation. And who said anything about Hebrew? Though I'm sure if you went to a bank in Brooklyn, there would be someone there who speaks that language. It's called good business sense, and serving the local population - it's not a personal attack on you. And as an immigrant yourself, I'm really surprised that you aren't more sympathetic about this subject. Finally, I wasn't necessarily supporting the "accommodation of multicultural people", just the tolerance of those from other cultures. Since when do tolerance and compassion require a sacrifice??? I'm not expecting everyone to learn Spanish (though I already speak it, lol), but I do expect people to respect those who do.
P.S. Care to answer any of the direct questions I asked you? Particularly regarding the Christian holidays, which I was genuinely confused about.
Thank you for the last comment. I appreciate it. I feel fortunate to be here in America.
About Spanish and there numbers I feel it should not make a difference. Listen I know what I say might not be so popular with many but its a form of respect to appreciate America's roots. The debate is not that we should worship America and its culture but respect its roots. We live free here no matter what. Why should we not honor America for what it is and who encouraged it to be what it is? Its not the people that have been living here all their lives that are wanting to change America for the most part. Its the immigrants that have fled their country for some reason or another and not willing to conform to our way of life. They try to emboss there beliefs on us and change America. Can you not see what's happening to Europe? They have a mess in there hands.
But aren't our roots based on multiculturalism and immigration?? And I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, when you say they're trying to "push" themselves on our culture... language issues aside, I personally don't feel I'm being pushed into anything. And I live in a town that's 68% Hispanic (and about 45% of those are foreign-born), so it's not like I don't have any exposure! They have the right to display their own heritages, and there's no reason we'd have to abandon "American-ness" in exchange... plenty of my neighbors have Mexican, Tongan, and Samoan stickers on their car, but nobody's forced me to put one on mine! I do have a small Israeli flag hanging off my bookshelf, so does that mean I'm denying or abandoning my US citizenship? No, it just means I'm staying connected with my roots, and celebrating the fact that I'm a Jewish (and Slavic)-American. Regardless, I agree that it's hurtful to hear some immigrants speak badly about our country, and it's not a respectful thing for them to do. But that's one of the great things about being an American - we have the right to say whatever we darn well please! This also means that others have the right to react, or debate as we're doing here.
Anyway, I'm sorry if anything sounds harsh to you... I know you're not a racist or a bad person, but I just wish people would be more compassionate. And as "deeptrance" stated, we do border Latin America, so anyone who didn't expect immigrants was fooling themselves. The Swiss probably aren't surprised to see Germans & Italians inhabiting their border towns...
I think you are a Patriot too. It sometimes takes someone like you to get others to appreciate the wonderful freedoms we take for granted in this country. I'm sure you still have family back in Cuba that would love to have some of the problems we face in this country. Please don't take offense when liberals start picking apart your grammar and your mispelled words. They like to make sure you know how many degrees they have also it makes them feel superior they are very predictable. They need to validate themselves this way and that's ok, whatever helps them get through the day. The truth is they don't like what you are saying and it's offensive to them. They think everything is offensive that they don't agree with. They themselves are an extremely intolerant group. Keep up the goos work Cuban!!
Oy Vey... if this isn't the pot calling the kettle black!! I'm sorry, but saying stuff like this only adds to our arguments, because it's obvious you have trouble judging people as individuals. You just slap on a label - liberal, illegal, unpatriotic, etc. - and throw anyone who disagrees with you into that category. And how do you know everyone's political leanings in here? Maybe deeptrance & I are Republicans? Yes I am a "liberal", though not a Democrat; but I never said anything about being offended by "thecuban"'s comments, or dismissing him and his opinions... it's called a debate, and few (if any) of us have attacked anyone personally. P.S., being intolerant of intolerance isn't a form of bigotry - it's just being a decent human being.
Btw, how many degrees do I have, (no cheating by reading other threads, LOL)? I don't remember mentioning anything about that, aside from what my minor was in college, as it was relevant to the conversation... sorry if the mere mention of college is somehow threatening! Anyway, I worked hard for the degrees I do have, so there's no reason I shouldn't be proud of those accomplishments. As for picking on his spelling, that was only done because he was chastising others for not speaking English. Realizing now that it's his second language, I do apologize for anything I said regarding that... but the point remains the same, in that many of the people who complain about Spanish speakers, can barely speak their own native language properly. So how can they possibly feel the right to pick on others?? It's a tricky language, and not everyone can pick it up the minute they arrive here...
Your right I forgot to include the liberals. By the way slavery was not invented by the Americans. Also America was the the first lift those bonds.
Forgot to include the liberals in what? Seriously, I'd like to hear you expand on that comment...
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So, you must live in Ontario I'm assuming? Wouldn't the people there be concerned if millions of uneducated poor people flooded Ontario every year, didn't speak English and took up residence in your community? I say this because this is what is happening in every western state. Quebec is a different case because the French happened to be there before the English showed up. You've had a couple hundred years to settle differences. Well, the thing is that I have friends here in MI that are Canadian and from what I've read and heard about the Quebec situation over the years, the people in Quebec want to be a separate nation and that this is a very delicate political issue in Canada. Didn't Conan O'Brien commit a gaffe a few years ago because he cracked some joke about this without realizing the delicate situation? Correct me if I'm wrong please.
And as an immigrant yourself, I'm really surprised that you aren't more sympathetic about this subject. Finally, I wasn't necessarily supporting the "accommodation of multicultural people", just the tolerance of those from other cultures. Since when do tolerance and compassion require a sacrifice??? I'm not expecting everyone to learn Spanish (though I already speak it, lol), but I do expect people to respect those who do.
Even more thoughts...
