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Again, a lot of it isn't violence now, but words, especially with girls. It's name calling, rumors, gestures, looks, mocking, ignoring, in person and online. It's speech. So you cannot hit someone for speech. All you can do is ignore it or speak back.
When I was in school (graduated 1985) and when my kids were in school (graduated 2011, 2013), the rule was simple, and mine was handed down from my dad and his dad before him, etc:
Instance 1: tell them to knock it off
Instance 2: tell them to knock it off or else
Instance 3: punch them in the mouth or nose as hard as you possibly can, and if the first punch doesn't land solidly, punch again.
I recall when my oldest (son) got bullied in 1st grade. I picked him up from school and his usual chatterbox was silent, so I asked for the story. He followed my directive to the letter, gave the kid 3 chances and then punched him square in the teeth, busted his lip and made him cry in front of the other kids. My kid got out of school suspension for 2 days + 3 days of detention. He asked if he was in trouble with me and I said nope, you did exactly like I told you, right down to the letter. End of the story, I took him for ice cream, said good job on hooking up a bully, ad don't tell your mom I bought you ice cream for punching someone.
I ended up having to talk to the principle and that kid's mom on behalf of my son, and I explained that my son was a good kid who did exactly, specifically what I had told him to do if he got bullied, which is exactly what I was instructed to do by my dad. I got the usual litany of "someone could have been badly hurt" nonsense, to which I replied "yep, that is how you make bullies knock it off...you badly hurt them, so if you don't want your kid hurt anymore, tell them to stop bullying other kids who might also have parents like me."
Still and always the best way to stop bullying - make the bully hurt to the point that it simply isn't fun to continue their foolishness, at least not with you anyway.
I don't think you're aware of how limited legal self-defense actually is, particular against civil charges.
In fact, there is no self-defense legal defense against a civil suit.
It must be quite different in the USA. Self defense law is well defined under lawhere, and leans towards the defendant's subjective view of the situation. A proactive right to self defense is also defined.
There is no avenue for suing against self defense under civil law, if the matter has already been addressed by criminal law.
When I was in school (graduated 1985) and when my kids were in school (graduated 2011, 2013), the rule was simple, and mine was handed down from my dad and his dad before him, etc:
Instance 1: tell them to knock it off
Instance 2: tell them to knock it off or else
Instance 3: punch them in the mouth or nose as hard as you possibly can, and if the first punch doesn't land solidly, punch again.
I recall when my oldest (son) got bullied in 1st grade. I picked him up from school and his usual chatterbox was silent, so I asked for the story. He followed my directive to the letter, gave the kid 3 chances and then punched him square in the teeth, busted his lip and made him cry in front of the other kids. My kid got out of school suspension for 2 days + 3 days of detention. He asked if he was in trouble with me and I said nope, you did exactly like I told you, right down to the letter. End of the story, I took him for ice cream, said good job on hooking up a bully, ad don't tell your mom I bought you ice cream for punching someone.
I ended up having to talk to the principle and that kid's mom on behalf of my son, and I explained that my son was a good kid who did exactly, specifically what I had told him to do if he got bullied, which is exactly what I was instructed to do by my dad. I got the usual litany of "someone could have been badly hurt" nonsense, to which I replied "yep, that is how you make bullies knock it off...you badly hurt them, so if you don't want your kid hurt anymore, tell them to stop bullying other kids who might also have parents like me."
Still and always the best way to stop bullying - make the bully hurt to the point that it simply isn't fun to continue their foolishness, at least not with you anyway.
I was told by the principal of my son's grade school that I was banned from campus because I told my son who was being constantly bullied (he is high functioning autistic/AHDH) basically what you told your son.
Took a visit to the district offices to explain the situation and my stance to get her to shut up...
No, there were no campaigns to end bullying, at least in the time I went to school, 1959-1972. But then again, schools were smaller and teachers and teachers assistants were more actively involved in what was going on. They knew the students and the parents.
This is something that can't be left underestimated. The school faculty was embedded in the neighborhood.
My first grade teacher was my mother's best friend. My third grade teacher was a soror in my mother's sorority. The principal was our Sunday School superintendent. One of the music teachers played piano at our church, and the other played piano at the church down the street.
Our teachers were members of the same social clubs, fraternities, and sororities as our parents. Many of them had been classmates in school with each other. They knocked back beers with each other on Saturday nights.
Parents fully expected their friends at the school to act in loco parentis.
All my women teachers in elementary school had rubber hoses to whip us with. Some of them even named their rubber hoses: "Don't make me pull out 'Mr Greenjeans.'" The male teachers used their fraternity paddles; some of the had drilled holes in their paddles to cut wind resistance. Our parents fully backed them up--if we got a whipping at school, we got another one at home when our parents found out about it.
If we screwed up in school, our parents were going to hear about it no later than Sunday afternoon, and because parents and teachers were social acquaintances before and beyond our even coming into the picture, they were more likely to believe each other about us than believe us.
I suspect that's one of the reasons bullying didn't get to far.
It must be quite different in the USA. Self defense law is well defined under lawhere, and leans towards the defendant's subjective view of the situation. A proactive right to self defense is also defined.
There is no avenue for suing against self defense under civil law, if the matter has already been addressed by criminal law.
In the US being exonerated by a criminal court does not prevent being found at fault for the same act in civil court for which the criminal court declared you not guilty. Civil courts have a lower standard of evidence, so the results of the criminal court have no bearing.
In the US being exonerated by a criminal court does not prevent being found at fault for the same act in civil court for which the criminal court declared you not guilty. Civil courts have a lower standard of evidence, so the results of the criminal court have no bearing.
I should have specified reasonable force, rather than self defense, as self defense is a defense to a charge.
Under law here, if the parents of the bully tried to sue the beaten child's family for income, that wouldn't be allowed, as a person cannot benefit from a crime.
Also, the use of reasonable force as determined by the law, provides immunity from civil action/criminal prosecution, as reasonable force doesn't require consideration of possible legal consequences -the law intends that a person acting to defend themselves, be able to do so quickly and freely.
I should have specified reasonable force, rather than self defense, as self defense is a defense to a charge.
Under law here, if the parents of the bully tried to sue the beaten child's family for income, that wouldn't be allowed, as a person cannot benefit from a crime.
Also, the use of reasonable force as determined by the law, provides immunity from civil action/criminal prosecution, as reasonable force doesn't require consideration of possible legal consequences -the law intends that a person acting to defend themselves, be able to do so quickly and freely.
SSelf-defense laws in America are largely equitable. So basically I can't do anything to you unless I have a reasonable threat of imminent danger. A non-physical bully has no reason to be hit because there is none. If a bully is physical and tries to hurt you, then you can only hurt him equitably. IE: No broken bones if they attempt a ropeburn.
Now while I do defend zero tollerance, I do agree that it hinders self-defense, but the issue is school liability. The achool can and will be on the hool for major injuries related to someone stopping bullying by a lawyer. Whether it goes to court or settled, is a different story. And I'm not talking cases where parents sue when their kids are bullied which is FULLY justified especially with inattentive staff, I mean when the non-physical bully is popped in the mouth and a permanent tooth is knocked out, requiring dental surgery to put it back in.
SSelf-defense laws in America are largely equitable. So basically I can't do anything to you unless I have a reasonable threat of imminent danger. A non-physical bully has no reason to be hit because there is none. If a bully is physical and tries to hurt you, then you can only hurt him equitably. IE: No broken bones if they attempt a ropeburn.
Now while I do defend zero tollerance, I do agree that it hinders self-defense, but the issue is school liability. The achool can and will be on the hool for major injuries related to someone stopping bullying by a lawyer. Whether it goes to court or settled, is a different story. And I'm not talking cases where parents sue when their kids are bullied which is FULLY justified especially with inattentive staff, I mean when the non-physical bully is popped in the mouth and a permanent tooth is knocked out, requiring dental surgery to put it back in.
In the US, the going-in position of the plaintiff in the civil suit will be "All suffering requires restitution. My child suffered, here is the doctor bill to prove it, your child caused it, you have no doctor bills, you must make restitution."
"Self-Defense" is a defense under criminal statutes--there are no criminal statutes being discussed in a civil suit. There is no "self defense" in a civil suit.
The defense is going to argue the equability of the defendant's actions (but if the bully lost a tooth and the victim didn't, that's going to be a hard argument) and hope that sways the court, and with luck there will be successful precedents to produce.
Were there campaigns to end bullying? Were kids told to just deal with it and "man up?" I'm asking in light the whole Keaton controversy, but that's another topic.
We were told to deal with it. Unfortunately that did not always mean they wanted you to or that all were even capable of doing so. Keep in mind that some people are simple not capable of "dealing with it" bullies tend to go after the weak and those less capable of defending themselves, that is how bullies operate. I for one only had one try it with me and he learned a hard lesson, but I found as I got older that the schools really did not support "dealing with it" I was kicked out of high school twice because I saw a bully picking on someone weaker and I dealt with it in the appropriate manner. I learned that the system is not fair or just. Personally, I approve of the movement to end bullying and stop sweeping it under the rug and making it unacceptable and those guilty of it punished, some of the kids targeted are damaged for the rest of their lives and others give up completely and even go so far to kill themselves to end it. That is unacceptable.
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