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Old 12-15-2017, 01:18 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,624,265 times
Reputation: 18521

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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
The prosecution should never EVER withhold exculpatory evidence to the defense. We want justice, not kangaroo courts.

I think the Bundys belong in jail.....but I want them to arrive there fairly.


They were hiding that it was the Federal Government that was being aggressive not the Bundys or any of the Militia.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:23 PM
 
34,279 posts, read 19,371,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
They were hiding that it was the Federal Government that was being aggressive not the Bundys or any of the Militia.
The Bundies are in the wrong. Seriously. But if the government messes up too much I would support a judge dismissing the case due to bad behavior on the part of the government.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:54 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,624,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
The Bundies are in the wrong.

It doesn't look like they were. Or the federal government would not be hiding evidence and being caught in one lie after another.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,218 posts, read 22,365,741 times
Reputation: 23858
From my anti-vigilante perspective, it seems to me that the Feds failed big-time in their Oregon prosecution tactics with the Bundys.

Some of the most dangerous hangarounds who showed up at the Malheur National Bird Refuge, all dressed up to play Army and go into righteous battle went to prison, but none of the Bundys did.

It reminded me a lot of the O.J. Simpson trial. The prosecutors had a ton of evidence, but couldn't tie the evidence to intent. The same thing happened with the Bundys. Ammon Bundy was the sole person in the family who started the refuge occupation, but though he called for an occupation, he didn't call for starting an armed fight with deadly weapons. And he never armed himself.

It was all a chain in Oregon; after the Bunkerville standoff, the 3%, all the militias, and all the surly lone wolves that belonged to neither of the groups all showed up thinking Malheur would be the latter-day spark that would set fire to the New Revolution.

It wasn't.

What it was was nothing but a bunch of isolated, disaffected boys who wanted to play Rambo with deadly toys. Some few of them were seriously disturbed enough to be a threat, and they were the leaders. They were joined by one of the Bundy group with a death wish, who ramped the tension up, and kept it boiling.
But when he got what he wanted and was shot, all of a sudden the Rambo game became serious, so they all wet their pants and scampered away as fast as they could.

Ammon was on a Mission From God, and he never wanted them there anyway. He wanted missionaries to show up, not middle-aged Rambos. The jury figured it out, and that's why they turned Ammon and his family loose.

But this trial is a different one entirely. Ammon didn't start the Bunkerville showdown, his father Cliven did. And Cliven made the call to come help out. Cliven didn't want missionaries, he wanted Rambos. He wrapped himself up in the flag and waved the Constitution as a way to get them, and suckers that they all are, they fell for it.

The Feds learned a lot from the trial outcome in Oregon. Some of the most dangerously deranged Rambos came both times, and they have all gotten stiffer sentences in Nevada than they received in Oregon. Some will spend the rest of their lives locked up, and that's a good place for them. They were too unstable and too much a danger to ever be free.

But the Bundys? We'll know soon enough. I don't expect Ammon the Prophet will pull prison time. He just showed up to have his father's back, as a dutiful son would, along with his brothers. Sons stand by their fathers, even when Dad is wrong.

Ryan Bundy isn't out of the woods. He defied the law all on his own shortly after Bunkerville, and he could do a couple of years in prison for that, because he led that one.

Cliven's outcome, however, is anyone's guess but mine. Like his son, Cliven is on a mission, but not one from God. He wants only to do as he pleases on everyone's land but his own.

That's how a deadbeat always is. He wants what you have, but doesn't want to pay for it, and if he gets it, he won't give it back.

Cliven was given 10 years of slack and patience by the government. He could have used some of that time to negotiate a settlement with the BLM; thousands of ranchers do, every year, and my own family has done it.

The BLM field guys all understand the vagaries of the cattle market, the effects of drought and all, and they are always willing to negotiate when a rancher is in trouble. Ranchers are taxpayers too, after all, if they're law abiding. Old Cliven is not law abiding, has never been, and will never be.

This wasn't just about his cattle lease. He hasn't paid any taxes for years, so that's a big part of his case. His verdict will probably be different from his son's verdicts.

But if you take away the horses, the cowboy hats, and all the faux Constitutional BS, the fact is Cliven is more like the leader of a motorcycle gang than a modern-day rancher. The leader of a motorcycle gang is older, and he doesn't go for the guns. He calls up his boys and tells them to go a-shooting. He stays on the sideline and cheers his boys on.

Motorcycle gangs don't care about the innocents who get in their way. And neither did Cliven and his band of misfit Rambos.

Nobody was in the line of fire out in Oregon, but in Nevada, there were about 100 folks who came to watch the show who could have been slaughtered once a single trigger was pulled.
And if it hadn't been for the BLM agent in charge and a Sheriff who knew their duty was to protect those folks, all sitting around in their lawn chairs watching the show, the slaughter would have commenced in a couple of minutes.

There have been a bunch of people around over the past decade who have wanted to kill them some cops, or some feds, or kids, or anyone. All they really want to do is die with their guns blazing.

All they need is a reason, and Cliven gave them one. In a spot where a mass execution could have been no better planned by the Nazi SS.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,350,196 times
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The Feds have blown it. They will not manage to touch a Bundy. Simply screwed up the prosecution beyond all hope. All the Bundy's walk.

At this point there is no way you will ever get 12 Clark County jurors to vote for a conviction. An acquittal may as well be impossible. The Bundy's are not popular locally. But they will walk.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,218 posts, read 22,365,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lvmensch View Post
The Feds have blown it. They will not manage to touch a Bundy. Simply screwed up the prosecution beyond all hope. All the Bundy's walk.

At this point there is no way you will ever get 12 Clark County jurors to vote for a conviction. An acquittal may as well be impossible. The Bundy's are not popular locally. But they will walk.
Meh- we'll see about that.
So far, the prosecution's track record is better than the Oregon trials. But I don't ever try to outguess a jury.

You could be correct or not. I tend to think the jurors have the recent Las Vegas slaughter still on their minds, but that's just my opinion, and whether or not it will affect their decision is anyone's guess.

But sentencing will follow conviction. The jury will have something to say about that, too. The Bundys might not go to jail, but that doesn't mean they won't be found guilty.
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Old 12-16-2017, 05:01 AM
 
Location: *
13,240 posts, read 4,925,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
This is scary to the extent, the federal government will go to frame you and remove you from society and your family, to get what they want, no matter how unconstitutional it is.

This can happen to you!
How can those claiming to be 'Sovereign Citizens' cite the United States Constitution as a justification for being exempt from following the laws of the land?
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