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Old 12-28-2017, 05:33 PM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,064,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
President Obama confronted the corrupting influence of money from Day 1:
Yes he supported the attack on our first amendment rights while not holding a single banker criminally responsible for anything. All words, no actions like I said.

Quote:
The money spent on campaigns is an investment, so to speak, the real 'pay off' or 'ROI' comes with the legislation favoring the special monies interests, removing disfavorable regulations, et cetera, in other words ~ the economic rent seeking. Stating the obvious, the corrupting influence doesn't stop with the elections.

While I voted for Mr. Sanders in the NY primary, I'm not so sure he would've won.
At the worse he wouldn't have done as poorly as Hillary.

Quote:
Although I'm quite certain even if he had won, he would be having the same difficulties that President Obama had & for the same sortsof reasons. We are, after all, not a dictatorship, not even a benevolent one.

It'd be progress in the right direction if we simply had representatives who represented the people & not just 1% of US.
You have to vote for them to get them.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:34 PM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,064,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reed067 View Post
Yeah that was my point. I think hell will freeze over before we see a president from either party do something good regardless of party.
I think Sanders would have tried really hard to.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,303 posts, read 21,387,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornintheSprings View Post
But but anyone can be rich if they try hard enough
Most don't even try.

Gotta play to win.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:24 PM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,901,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Yes he supported the attack on our first amendment rights while not holding a single banker criminally responsible for anything. All words, no actions like I said.
Are you kidding?

Quote:
At the worse he wouldn't have done as poorly as Hillary.
I voted for Mr. Sanders, he lost the primary, accepted it & supported Ms. Clinton. So did I.

You ignore the reality that even if Mr. Sanders won, he would have had the same challenges that President Obama had & for the same reasons.

Quote:
You have to vote for them to get them.
We don't get to vote for a dictator, even if we believe them to benevolent. Even when we get who we vote for, we don't get everything we want. No one does.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:25 PM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,901,503 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
I think Sanders would have tried really hard to.
& would've come up against the same limitations that President Obama did.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,527,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
Most don't even try.

Gotta play to win.
If everyone were a millionaire, who would work in the restaurants or bowling alleys or movie theatres or grocery stores etc etc, or more importantly, who would be a janitor or plumber at that point. It can't happen
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles (Native)
25,303 posts, read 21,387,412 times
Reputation: 12318
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
If everyone were a millionaire, who would work in the restaurants or bowling alleys or movie theatres or grocery stores etc etc, or more importantly, who would be a janitor or plumber at that point. It can't happen
But janitor or movie theatre worker doesn't have to be a life sentence.

Many very rich people had low paying jobs at some point in their life .

Plumbers actually can make nice money . I know one that made over $100k year , has investments a nice home etc .

I don't know his net worth but would be surprised if he's a millionaire .
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:36 PM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,064,775 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Are you kidding?
Not at all.

Quote:
I voted for Mr. Sanders, he lost the primary, accepted it & supported Ms. Clinton. So did I.

You ignore the reality that even if Mr. Sanders won, he would have had the same challenges that President Obama had & for the same reasons.
Trump got tax cuts passed.

Quote:
We don't get to vote for a dictator, even if we believe them to benevolent. Even when we get who we vote for, we don't get everything we want. No one does.
I refuse to vote for those who do the opposite of what I want. I will not vote for a war monger that sold out to wall street no matter what other positions they hold. Those two are non negotiable.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:36 PM
Status: "81 Years, NOT 91 Felonies" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,789 posts, read 3,583,053 times
Reputation: 5687
First, what is "punishment"?

google.com entry "punishment" - the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense

merriam-webster.com

Definition of punishment
1 : the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment

While it's partially true that "dictionaries are opinions listed in alphabetical order", the fact is that words do mean things. So these entries are as good a starting point as any to begin my discussion.

The OP use "Punishment" is just equivocating -using the same word used to mean two different things. Punishing, in the formal sense, means an authority (governmental or not) inflicting pain for violating formal laws, regulations, bylaws, rules (again, governmental organ or not). The other sense, more metaphorical, is anything that causes excruciating pain. For example, "Defensive tackles often take great punishings from their opposites when trying to sack the other team's quarterback". The last sense is closer to what the OP means by punishing - although this use of "punishment" is merely less incorrect than the first one.

First, ANY giving up of money can be a pain / self-sacrifice - even a voluntary donating to charity when there is clearly no tax advantage or other loss mitigation (financially) from doing so. Everybody gets "punished" when they pay taxes - even Gates and Buffet. So punishment (in this broad sense) is almost a non-issue.

To make a long story short, the issues are a) are taxes paid so great that the person cannot plausibly have a realistically humane lifestyle due to their tax burden, and b) does the tax burden destroy incentive to produce goods, ideas, and services.

a) is almost too easy. There IS a need to avoid raising your children in substandard housing as defined by the building code. There is NO actual need for your children to be able to live a Beverly Hills lifestyle (in the strict material, not tabloid, sense). Even a 5000 sq ft 3 story $750K home the neurosurgeon or law firm partner is not an actual necessity. So (a) definitely does not apply to the wealthy.

b) ultimately I don't see it applying to the wealthy. In 1953, the marginal tax rate for people making $300K/yr (about $3M in today's terms)source: Consumer Price Index Data from 1913 to 2017 | US Inflation Calculator . Yet our economy was moving along at a humming clip back in that golden age.

Even worse, at some point, the fewer taxes you pay, the worse off society becomes (including even you yourself). Low quality police protection and military. Lower quality schools and highways and infrastructure. Lower quality (if at all) consumer protection. Sure, the rich can afford to pay for this protection, but it's still paying. So why should the poor get lower levels of protection simply because they can't afford it. More specifically, if the poor don't have the right to have the essential basics of a minimally humane quality of life, then why not the middle class as well, or even further up the scale.

Also, lots of these very rags to riches stories came about BECAUSE society paid tax dollars to sufficiently educated them to a level where they could have a fighting chance at success -- from David Sarnoff (major figure in RCA, the Google or Microsoft of the time) to Neil DeGrasse Tyson to Alicia Keyes to Matthew McConaughey.

Besides, this "rich getting richer" tends to lead to serious power imbalances in society - absolutely toxic for democracy. In that case, the rich will find a way to influence the elected representatives, presidents, etc. while not giving a damn for the well-being of even the middle class, let alone the poor. And all because they want to be able to afford another yacht (taken from the 1987 film, Wall Street).

Last edited by Phil75230; 12-28-2017 at 07:01 PM..
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:37 PM
 
79,908 posts, read 44,064,775 times
Reputation: 17204
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
& would've come up against the same limitations that President Obama did.
They wouldn't have been working for the same things. Obama created his own problems. He had one of the biggest majorities in history and blew it.
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