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So the couple wanted the exact same raspberry fantasy cake that this baker had made and sold to others?
Where does the "artist" business come in?
You're not understanding the Free Speech issue. Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
Because it isn't. I don't hate religious people. A person has the Constitutional right to believe in whatever higher power they want. They do not have the right to use their so called belief in an invisible entity as an excuse for prejudice against a living, breathing person standing in front of them.
The Supreme Court may very well decide otherwise when it hands down its ruling in the Masterpiece Cakeshop decision. Moreover, in most states this "right," fair or not, does exist as there are no laws barring discrimination by private businesses against LGBT individuals (for whatever reasons, religious or otherwise) in the vast majority of states. I don't agree with these laws (or the lack thereof) on principle, but also believe that the First Amendment protects what the baker in this case and in the Masterpiece Cakeshop sought to do. We will see what the Supreme Court decides, though.
Sorry, that is absolutely true. They may say they are "open to all" but the public accommodation law does not apply to a private institution like a church. Yes they can rent their space, but there is no law that states they have to, and they can also discriminate. The laws for a public business are very different from a private institution.
That's the point! There are no laws requiring this and just about every honest attorney will tell you that any law seeking to require such would run afoul of the First Amendment. But the same argument applies to private individuals and businesses who, like the church, sell a service/product to the public. And a church is operating as a public business when it sells its services/rents its venues to the public, regardless of how you try to distinguish between the two.
Because it isn't. I don't hate religious people. A person has the Constitutional right to believe in whatever higher power they want. They do not have the right to use their so called belief in an invisible entity as an excuse for prejudice against a living, breathing person standing in front of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willamette City
Sorry, that is absolutely true. They may say they are "open to all" but the public accommodation law does not apply to a private institution like a church. Yes they can rent their space, but there is no law that states they have to, and they can also discriminate. The laws for a public business are very different from a private institution.
There is no fundamental difference between a public and private business. The difference is arbitrary and largely imaginary. And while it is fun to have these debates over definitions and court rulings, we should make sure we understand the purpose of the public accommodations clause in the first place.
The public accommodations clause, just like all Civil-Rights legislation, was ruled Constitutional based on the "Commerce clause" in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution.
In short, the court ruled that discrimination in certain types of businesses hurts the economy. Thus, any discrimination which hurts the economy is unconstitutional.
To give you some perspective, imagine if there wasn't a public accommodations clause today, and businesses, such as hotels and restaurants, were free to discriminate based on race, religion, etc. How do you think that would affect the economy? What about tourism? What about our international relationships with countries which aren't Europe?
I mean, when Trump tried to pass his "travel ban", the people opposing it the most were the tech companies in silicon valley. These are international businesses, and if America appears racist or xenophobic, it hurts their bottom line, because countries might start boycotting us.
The same basic principle applies to sexual orientation. If discrimination hurts the economy, then it will be deemed illegal. And all the crying about it is a waste of time.
The reason conservatives are idiots, is because they don't seem to understand why governments exist. They are lost in some fantasy about rights and freedoms. When in reality, governments exist for power alone. And in this world, money is power. Thus governments are nothing but massive economies, and they act always for more "economic-growth"(IE their national interests).
The biggest economy on Earth, is the most-powerful country on Earth.
Even when a government builds a park, it isn't actually about the people. The goal is to raise property values. Any proposal that the government makes supposedly in the "interests of the public", is always filtered by how it will affect the economy.
Immigration isn't about doing good for the people of this country, or about helping desperate people in the third-world. Immigration is about economic-growth. And even if immigrants drive down wages for most Americans, if they grow the overall size of the economy, then they are deemed a benefit to this country. And all the complaining will do you no good.
Conservatives don't even know why capitalism exists. Which is why they are incapable of seeing the future of what capitalism will inevitably produce.
Conservatives seem to believe that capitalism is their friend. They are incapable of understanding that it is their enemy. A true capitalist has no nation, he has no people, he has no culture, he has no religion. He is everything and nothing. And he will gladly destroy everything "good" for profit. And drag the rest of us along with him.
"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains." - Thomas Jefferson
But if you dare say this to them, they will call you a communist, and disregard every word. That is how stupid they are.
Should it be legal to walk around naked or to have sex in public?
This is a question which cannot be answered with your theory of morality.
And when you begin to look at most other questions pertaining to morality, you'll realize that your theory can't answer them either.
Is it wrong to steal? Is it always wrong to steal? Aren't there times when it might be morally-justifiable to steal? When are those times?
Is it wrong to murder? Is it always wrong to murder? Aren't there times when it might be morally-justifiable to murder? When are those times? And will everyone agree?
Without god there cannot be objective-morality. There can only be YOUR opinion and MY opinion.
The reason conservatives are idiots, is because they don't seem to understand why governments exist. They are lost in some fantasy about rights and freedoms. When in reality, governments exist for power alone. And in this world, money is power. Thus governments are nothing but massive economies, and they act always for more "economic-growth"(IE their national interests).
The biggest economy on Earth, is the most-powerful country on Earth.
Even when a government builds a park, it isn't actually about the people. The goal is to raise property values. Any proposal that the government makes supposedly in the "interests of the public", is always filtered by how it will affect the economy.
Immigration isn't about doing good for the people of this country, or about helping desperate people in the third-world. Immigration is about economic-growth. And even if immigrants drive down wages for most Americans, if they grow the overall size of the economy, then they are deemed a benefit to this country. And all the complaining will do you no good.
Conservatives don't even know why capitalism exists. Which is why they are incapable of seeing the future of what capitalism will inevitably produce.
Conservatives seem to believe that capitalism is their friend. They are incapable of understanding that it is their enemy. A true capitalist has no nation, he has no people, he has no culture, he has no religion. He is everything and nothing. And he will gladly destroy everything "good" for profit. And drag the rest of us along with him.
"Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains." - Thomas Jefferson
But if you dare say this to them, they will call you a communist, and disregard every word. That is how stupid they are.
You might as well steer folks to Ayn Rand's CAPITALISM: THE UNKNOWN IDEAL, 1966 & 1967 to clarify your thoughtviews on this subject:
You're not understanding the Free Speech issue. Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
Using artistic expression to argue against blatant discrimination is a stretch only thought up by an attorney who is out of options to defend this.
You're not understanding the Free Speech issue. Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
It does not appear you are understanding the situation.
They were not asked to "create a custom cake." They were asked to make the very same cake they've made for others.
Using artistic expression to argue against blatant discrimination is a stretch only thought up by an attorney who is out of options to defend this.
It's not just artistic expression. It's Free Speech. The government CANNOT compel speech or expression. I've already explained this quite clearly.
Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
Last edited by InformedConsent; 01-03-2018 at 09:46 AM..
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