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Old 01-03-2018, 09:45 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,804,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
It's not just artistic expression. It's Free Speech. The government CANNOT compel speech or expression. I've already explained this quite clearly.

Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
How is it free speech?

A cake isn't free speech unless it's artistic expression. If it's a stock cake, it's not artistic expression.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,163,029 times
Reputation: 9895
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
It's not just artistic expression. It's Free Speech. The government CANNOT compel speech or expression. I've already explained this quite clearly.

Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
They were not compelled to say anything that they did not already say. The couple wanted a cake that they bakery made and offered for sale before to other people including one of their mother for her wedding.
It wasn't even a wedding cake, it was their raspberry fantasy cake. IF they had a problem expressing the sentiment in the cake why did they make it repeatedly before?
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:48 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,765 posts, read 44,581,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
It does not appear you are understanding the situation.

They were not asked to "create a custom cake." They were asked to make the very same cake they've made for others.
That is a custom order, unless it was bought off the shelf.

Buy a cake out of the bakery case? Good for you. Order 5 dozen cupcakes for a graduation party, etc.? Custom order.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
24,260 posts, read 14,163,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That is a custom order, unless it was bought off the shelf.

Buy a cake out of the bakery case? Good for you. Order 5 dozen cupcakes for a graduation party, etc.? Custom order.
Sorry, but even ordering off the menu is still covered in public accommodation laws. Not only premade goods are included.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:59 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,765 posts, read 44,581,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
How is it free speech?

A cake isn't free speech unless it's artistic expression.
Incorrect. Compelled speech is requiring one to express a thought with which one disagrees.

express: convey (a thought or feeling) in words or by gestures and conduct

Minersville School District v. Gobitis, which was subsequently overturned in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

Wooley v. Maynard

Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:00 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,804,663 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That is a custom order, unless it was bought off the shelf.

Buy a cake out of the bakery case? Good for you. Order 5 dozen cupcakes for a graduation party, etc.? Custom order.
So what if it was a custom order? What about it makes it free speech? What does a raspberry fantasy cake say?
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:01 AM
 
18,555 posts, read 7,324,831 times
Reputation: 11360
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
How is it free speech?

A cake isn't free speech unless it's artistic expression. If it's a stock cake, it's not artistic expression.
It wasn't a stock cake.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Midwest
38,496 posts, read 25,750,074 times
Reputation: 10789
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
It's not just artistic expression. It's Free Speech. The government CANNOT compel speech or expression. I've already explained this quite clearly.

Compelled speech is prohibited by the US Constitution's First Amendment. In the same way that the First Amendment protects free expression, it also protects an individual from being required to utter or otherwise express (e.g., create a custom-ordered cake for a same sex wedding) a thought with which they disagree.
What does the cake say?

On a more serious side, if you are going with that argument, no free speech was denied. The Bakers withheld their own free speech by not making a cake.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:04 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,765 posts, read 44,581,069 times
Reputation: 13612
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
They were not compelled to say anything that they did not already say.
Incorrect. Forcing the baker to create a wedding cake for the same sex couple is unConstitutional compelled speech. Read my explanation and the cases I cited.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:06 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,804,663 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Incorrect. Compelled speech is requiring one to express a thought with which one disagrees.

express: convey (a thought or feeling) in words or by gestures and conduct

Minersville School District v. Gobitis, which was subsequently overturned in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette

Wooley v. Maynard

Agency for International Development v. Alliance for Open Society International, Inc.
What thought is being expressed by a cake?
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