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If being a "real American" means being open to the possibility that some third world culture and desert religion can make inroads, grow and become the dominant force in this country such that we're a part of the Ummah on the North American continent, complete with all the fun social ills, strife, and poor social outcomes that always accompany Islamic societies...... then count me out as an "American." I'll be packing up my family and moving out the moment this country ever becomes "majority Muslim" because I know from history what - ALWAYS - happens next.
"America" and "the west" is synonymous with freedom, openness, innovation, power and creativity and culture. The exact opposite of everything you will find in the Islamic world.
You're literally basically saying that America and Europe could have come under Nazi rule, and we would still be a free and prosperous and open societies. Do you actually believe something like that? Or do you just have a crush on a hijabi and are trying to convince yourself of absurdities?
Remember the old saying: “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities."
You would be wise to read your last statement and take it to heart. You are believing in a lot of absurdities.
Primarily: there is no imminent threat of America being "taken over". And I have never argued for unregulated or unlimited immigration. Nor have I ever seen that advocated for by any politician.
America certainly does stand for freedom and openness. Inclusiveness is one of our primary tenants, even if many people don't want to admit that it is part of our culture and who we are as a nation.
What is important is not what religious makeup the people of the country have. It is that we maintain the ideals that have always made us a strong country. Most importantly, maintaining the separation of Church and State. Believe whatever nonsense you want (and that goes for all religions, FYI) - just keep your nonsense out of our laws.
I can't believe people take threats like the one you paint above seriously...
^^^^This. Many of todays illegal, invaders as well as legal immigrants don't like American values, nor the ideals we've had since our founding. They want to change the very things that appeal to people, and want them to come here. They don't want to assimilate, and become "Americans". They want to destroy us from within. It was promoted by Obama, and the Dems. During her campaign, Hillary stated she would INCREASE the number of Muslim refugees. Thank God she lost.
I love American values. I have no idea what you're talking about.
You should know that one of the most important values of our nation through its history has been its nature of inclusiveness.
It matters not where you came from - anyone from anywhere can come here and "make it". That is the American dream. If you're willing to work hard, you can be rewarded with the happiness that people seek out here.
I also think you know little about immigrant communities. History has shown, consistently, that second and third generation immigrants are as "assimilated" as any other American child.
Sure - first generation immigrants don't assimilate immediately - but that has NEVER been true. If you don't think so, I suggest you read some history about our various immigrant communities.
As an example, it is not that long ago that communities from many European communities were denigrated by Americans for being different and foreign (and for stealing their jobs...I guess some things just don't change!).
What makes America what it is are its people. And the land. Blood and soil, like every other country, ever. Except that we have had a lot of land per person, which is a recipe for wealth and prosperity, as Ben Franklin pointed out.
That's a propaganda point invented circa 1960. It's a lie.
That's the American way, and the human way. That's how it's done everywhere including here. The whole point of a country is to limit its population to a select group. From the first Congress in 1790:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States . . . .
The country has always been inclusive by its very nature. Sure - there were some racist tenants/beliefs held by some of our government figures in the early years - but that doesn't change the REST of our history, which overwhelmingly shows that we are a nation of people from everywhere. It matters not where you came from - we will accept you. We don't have a religious or ethnicity test - Thankfully.
Nor does it change what the Constitution and Bill of Rights gives to all Americans.
Of course - I am not saying, at any point, that we should not have immigration regulation and limits. As many wrongly (and dishonestly) assume.
Well, you're wrong. The founders had a Biblical worldview, one based on Biblical morality, thereby making it exclusive to those who appreciate and practice said beliefs. Why is America now a corpse heading to the grave? It abandoned said beliefs. God does not bless this mess that we have now.
God has no place in our government. Thankfully, our founding fathers had the foresight to establish a strict barrier between Church and State.
I also seriously challenge that we have a "Biblical worldview". The majority of the 10 commandments are perfectly legal here (and have been pretty much since our country was founded). What kind of "Biblical worldview" would not make the 10 commandments law?
Anyone who is against unbridled illegal immigration and un vettable masses from terror sponsoring areas of the word that are openly hostile to America and American culture is a racist white supremacist......
And you guys still can't figure out why you lost the election.
For one: No one is arguing for illegal immigration.
For two: No one is arguing for "un vettable masses from terror sponsoring areas of the world". You do realize that we have been, very extensively, vetting refugees to this country for a very long time? You know that nonsense that Trump spouted about vetting? Well, he didn't even freaking bother to check what kind of vetting our border agents were already doing! What an ignorant fool.
Speaking of "American culture" and what America stands for:
And I would argue that anyone that wants to create "religious tests" or "ethnic checks" is hostile to what America stands for. Am I to assume you are un-American? Because you are certainly saying some pretty un-American things, in my view.
You should be ashamed of yourself, if you really do believe in that kind of nonsense.
England, by becoming diverse, is by no means pioneering some brave new multiracial world. Brazil has been multiracial for centuries, with Spanish and Portuguese, Africans and native Indians in the mix, and it makes sense to look at what conditions are presently like in Brazil to see where we in England will most likely end up.
Brazil has huge wealth inequalities. The Gini coefficient, a statistical index of wealth inequality, shows that Brazil is one of the most unequal societies in the world, and quite possibly the most unequal of all outside Africa.
Brazil has minimal welfare provision, the shantytowns or “favelas” testify to this.
Brazil has a phenomenally high crime rate. Here are some figures.
Brazil in 2016 registered a record 61,619 murders, an average of 168 per day! (The number of violent deaths last year in Brazil is approximately equal to the number of people killed by the atomic bomb the US dropped on Nagasaki.)
The number of civilians killed in police operations was 4,224 in 2016.
The number of police officers killed was 437..
The number of robberies in which the victim was killed was 2,514.
To provide some perspective, the UK has roughly one third of the population and has roughly 600 murders in total in a year.
Despite centuries of the different races living in the same country, Brazilians are not all one chocolate colour. And the Races are, to some extent, segregated, with blacks and multiracial individuals tending to live in the North and whites in the South. Brazil’s political and business elite appears to be almost all white. Brazilians celebrate the classical white Western standards of beauty, if their celebrities and beauty queens are anything to go by.
Political corruption is an issue in Brazil. Brazil lies in 76th place out of 168 countries on the “Transparency International” corruption index. For perspective, India and China rank one and two places below them.
Brazil has a strong patriarchal culture. There is pressure for men and women to behave according to (Catholic) societal norms. Men are expected to be strong and powerful. Women, in contrast, are considered weak, and are expected to defer to men. There are many articles on the Internet written by young white women who have visited Brazil and who describe the shock of being accosted and even physically assaulted by men who won’t take no for an answer. Brazil has the sixth highest rate of female murders in the world. In 2016, 4,657 females were murdered.
It seems at least to be a reasonable hypothesis that Brazil reveals to us how a multicultural society will evolve over a sufficiently long period of time. De facto racial segregation. High levels of corruption. Massive disparities in wealth, with the most affluent living in secure, gated communities, and very high rates of crime, especially violent crime, affecting the quality of life of everybody else.
Brazil problems are not due to the diversity of the population. It due to long periods of neglect of the poor there.
While you at it, not all Blacks live in poverty, and I have met some professionally successful educated and clever Blacks too. Also in the US it is the Black immigrants that are more likely to earn more than American Blacks.
While I agree that America is not like France in that our culture is a culture of many different groups, at what point do we stop huge influxes of people? Do we want a billion people here like India or China? We can’t take in the world. At some point, people need to stay and fix their own countries. If my house was falling apart I wouldn’t be allowed to go to someone else’s house and claim it’s alright because I will clean and do the work you don’t want to do. I would be expected to fix my own house.
I have never stated we should have "huge influxes of people". Of course we should have regulations and limits on our immigration. As we have had throughout our history.
And I would argue that anyone who doesn't want controlled borders and Immigration is ignorant to reality, and has their head in a hole. Legal Immigration is one thing, but illegal is another, and stop the stupid lotteries and importing people that we have to support with out taxes.
Not once have I said we should have unlimited immigration, or that our immigrants should be of the "illegal" variety. You are welcome to check my post history on this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347
We all know that ISLAM is not compatible with any Western Values,
Eh - we do know that. We have a few million Muslims living in the USA peacefully today. Did you know this?
One wonders how they make it work if what you say is true...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347
and they think what we do is evil and anti Religion.
Who is "they"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris347
All Muslims may not be Terrorists, but most Terrorists are Muslims. That's a point no one can argue.
It actually is a point that can be argued. But that is for another thread. I would rather not derail this one.
Don't be naive. Those American ideals never really existed in the first place.
The United States did allow a large amount of immigration for a while, because we had a huge amount of land, and we needed new labor to help develop it(not even considering the rise of American industry).
But at various times in American History, immigration was more-or-less shut down entirely. And even the founding fathers themselves weren't huge about immigration. George Washington wanted to spread immigrants out so that they would be assimilated. And most of them resisted the influx of new immigrants, especially any who weren't White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
The education system itself was to a large extent about assimilating cultural minorities, and making them into Americans. What do you think the Pledge of allegiance was for?
The truth is, large-scale immigration never existed because of any silly American ideal. It existed because it benefited the United States. And the moment it wasn't beneficial to the "national interests", it stopped.
This whole idea that allowing unlimited amounts of immigrants from the third-world is an "American ideal" is a fabrication. It is a myth. A nice-sounding myth nonetheless, but a myth regardless. And this myth exists to break down your will to resist an immigration system which exists to benefit big-business. Because the "national interests" of this country, are the business interests of this country.
I have never argued for "unlimited amounts" of immigration. Why are so many in this thread putting these ridiculous words into my mouth?
The simple reality is this: We are, overwhelmingly, a nation of people with ancestors who came from elsewhere. America would not be the country it is without these people who took the risk to come here from elsewhere.
We do not have a "religious test". We do not have an "ethnic test".
Our forefathers may not have totally approved of all of the immigrants who came to America (as you argue), the country that they founded would (and has over its history) allowed them in.
I honestly could care less what Washington wrote or thought on a personal level - what matters is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That is what our country is built on.
Our founding fathers were British and primarily English. They were successful in adapting small numbers of other ethnic groups such as the Dutch, Swedes, French, Germans, Irish, Jews and Free Blacks but the backbone was the English. It was the English system of self government and liberty with its roots in Magna Carta which is the backbone of American democracy and helped us from going through the banana republic cycle like our neighbors in Central and South America.
America was already a successful growing country when the massive waves of immigrants started coming in the later 1800s. We had the jobs and the corporates wanted cheap labor to fill them. But instead we could have taken far fewer immigrants over the years and we would still be America just like Canada and Australia took far fewer immigrants then us and they are still Canada and Australia today.
Somehow we let the corporates get away with this immigrant propaganda myth even to the point that the Statue of Liberty lost its meaning about Liberty and instead has become a symbol of immigration. Some of you continue to buy this myth but I do not.
And btw, I would argue that anyone that would want to flood their country with poor and uneducated economic migrants, far from loving their country is in the long run naively destroying it.
"flood" - I have never argued for anything of that nature. Please, do point out where I have done so. I'll wait.
It really doesn't matter that our country was founded by English-speaking British. What matters are the principles laid out in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Separation of Church of State. The belief that all people are created equally.
These are the things that make America, America. And why so many other countries have tried to replicate us.
Can you think of another country that has an ideal such as the "American dream"? Where people, all over the world, dream of coming here to "make it"?
I cannot.
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slims. That's a point no one can argue.
