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Not all untruths are lies. I think Obama's intent was truly that you could keep your doctor. That turned out to be true for the vast majority of Americans. In some cases, however, it turned not to be true. I would say Obama was wrong, not that he lied.
It seems to be a deliberate deception, because who would assume that you can totally change the requirements for insurance plans and then tell people if they like their plan they can keep it?
No you can't! If the requirements for your plan change, your plan is done! Which is EXACTLY what happened.
Plans have terms and conditions. All plans were deemed noncompliant, cancelled, and replaced with new plans. Duh! It was a lie.
Also, when Joe Wilson said YOU LIE, he was right. It WAS a lie. Illegals can use the Marketplace.
There are a bunch of "statuses" that allow this to occur...including, most egregiously, illegals who are contesting deportation or removal orders.
I have very good friends and family members who are conservative and very good friends and family members who are liberal. We certainly disagree and/or agree about many things, but there is still enough we have in common, enjoy about one another, that transcends even politics. Accordingly, the analogy I tend to prefer over yours is that of the couple that really, ultimately, does not want a divorce...
How to get along when sometimes your spouse drives you utterly crazy? Going on better than 30 years of marriage to a strong-willed redhead who has driven me crazy in more ways than I can count (for both good and bad reasons), I still certainly don't have much in the way of answers.
I suspect part of the answer is to strive toward and maintain a healthy respect for one another even when it seems divorce would be the far easier path. Then too there are always the kids to think about...
Problem with that is, you only live once and there is no prize for spending it in misery.
...Basically, you put people to death, when society is better-off if they are dead. You chop off hands, when society is better-off if you do...
So evil doesn't exist and Hitler wasn't evil because he didn't think so? I suppose if Trump thinks he's honest, then he's not a liar? If Moore asks the mother's permission then he's not a pedophile? Etc, Etc.?
We both agree that when it comes to our country on the world stage anything goes, but you make it easy to understand why Republicans find lying, cheating, criminal behavior and other immoral acts acceptable in our country's politics. If you find immoral acts acceptable in politics, why not at work? Why not when you're dealing with your family or spouse? It must be hell having such a dark, hateful and pessimistic view of the world and your fellow Americans.
I believe this is one of the major divisions between libs and cons. They don't see themselves as Americans first, rather they see themselves as conservatives first, Americans second. They identify and feel closer to conservative Russians than their fellow liberal Americans. It's the reason why Republicans can ignore the Russians attack on our last election and show no interest in investigating the means to stop it from happening again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
......So I have little interest in discussing the topic in such theoretical terms. Because it doesn't matter what you or I think. The world just is.
You can bet what when southerners were told that slavery was immoral, they would say, 'The world just is". When women told men they wanted they deserve to vote, what did conservatives say? 'The world just is". When blacks told conservatives they refuse to go to he back door of restaurants, what did conservativces say? Say it with me, 'The world just is".
History shows us time and time again that conservatives by definition don't like change or to see Americans progress, period. Or to put in another way, as the world just is, conservatives just are. Liberals are the ones responsible for all the above improvements in our society, no thanks to conservatives...
This is what you believe that society(IE government) is, or should be. But is it????
Think of the history of the world, is that actually why society(IE governments/states/etc) exists? Is that why the British Empire existed? Or the Soviet Union? Or the Roman Empire? Or Ancient Egypt? Or even the United States?
So why does society/government exist? And cut out the bull****.
Was gladly entertaining your questions until you ask I cut the bull****, which tells me you're not really interested in other than yours...
Nevertheless, I will pretend you are really interested, and if so, you might begin by asking yourself why I would want to bull**** about my opinions and reasons for them. What could I gain by that? What would be the point?
Fact not BS is that people have a great many reasons to want both individual freedom and societal order, and although there is both good and bad to society and/or government (as with most things), if one is not able to recognize and consider both the good and bad (for whatever personal reasons), then we are no longer engaging in objective critical thinking.
Need I go on about the pros and cons to society and/or government, or how different societies and governments throughout history and all over the world have served their citizens quite differently in a wide variety of ways? You see them as all the same? You don't see any differences between the Roman Empire, for example, and the United States? Nazi Germany compared to China?
Would take me a good while to answer the question why society/government exists, because there are many reasons, varied in terms of what country/people we're talking about, much like the different reasons a family exists (or doesn't). Might take a simple look around and note the places or examples where society/government doesn't exist, and what might we conclude about that observation as well?
Might simply be that we humans gravitate toward a sort of order that becomes all the more likely as our numbers grow, because we can't help but begin to start bumping into each other in more ways than one. We are inclined to establish some rules that include hierarchy, banding together against threats, against those who would harm us or steal from us, just for starters...
Also of course there is the quest for power, control and wealth that begins to materialize as well, especially as the numbers grow and the land underneath becomes more and more limited as far as those needing or wanting more are concerned.
Lots of good and bad to contend with when it comes to the emergence of society/government that serves its people for better or worse, and history has shown us how that evolution has been both for better or worse in many different ways in many different lands.
Be that as it may, seems the fundamental question remains, specially in the context of modern day societies like ours 350 million people strong. What is the alternative to having a society/government?
Every nation does whatever is in its national interests. If it is in the national interests to enslave, then people will be enslaved. If it is in the national interests to commit genocide, then genocide will be committed. If it is in the national interests to conquer and oppress, that is what there will be.
And this is so painfully obvious when you look at the history of the world, or just the history of the United States, that I don't see how anyone could see anything else.
You seem to be stating the obvious, but your observations stop far short of all involved when considering how we manage as a people I think...
You might as well be describing a person who will connive, steal and murder if this is what they choose to do. Of course, but what do others do about that simple fact? Simply accept all wrong-doing around us because there has always been wrong-doing and always will be wrong-doing? I don't think so...
True as well when it comes to what a society/government may decide to do for whatever reasons. The better among us are still striving to insure that we pursue our interests in ways that are more acceptable than enslaving people, committing genocide, conquering and oppressing others.
Any fool can see we've still got a long way to go in these respects still today, more so in some parts of the world than others but much improvement still to be had everywhere. No kidding, but if we -- YOU -- can't see what progress we have also made in these regards over the course of human history; where, why and how, then no wonder you can't seem to understand what others do about all things society and government, all "good, bad and ugly."
And/or again, what alternative to society/government do we have anyway?
Might as well be railing about our short-comings as humans, how our bodies are not as good or strong as we'd like them to be, how we wish all people would behave better. Again no kidding, but we're still stuck with doing what we can with what we have to work with, and hopefully each generation does a little better here and there than the one before, if for no other reason than more and more people become better educated about how better to manage our strengths and weaknesses.
We've all been aware, on some level, that the populace is less well read than ever before, opinions formed from radio propaganda seem to serve as a kind of universal truth, so it's simply an intellectual laziness that allows people to appear informed--for at least three minutes..Beyond that span most can't muster the intellectual strength required for a sustained conversation, instead they rely on a tactic of "forceful" delivery, meant to nullify any logical rebuttal. How and where we get our information is of such critical importance, and way too many are simply allowing others to form their talking points, in essence we end up arguing with the opinions of Sean Hannity, or the daily show's host, Trevor Noah.
Politics in America has become a comedic spectacle which defines the true state of the union, looking back, over the last fifty years, I can't find many in the political circus who would deserve our admiration--or trust. Party politics used to include the standard of a party's "platform," a construct made up of issues referred to as "planks" which allowed us a view of the differing party policies with regard to economics, foreign policy, taxes, education, labor laws, and other pertinent concerns which affected us all. We were supposed to hold their collective feet to the fires of their platform promises, now it's guns and abortion, issues which are tied to our rights as individuals and not something that should be at the mercy of party politics.
Compare that form of politics to the one we see today, our current crop of circus performers acting as our "representatives" has become a national embarrassment, and certainly not limited to Clinton or Trump, no, we have an entire body of government elites running the show for their own personal agenda, mostly servants of those who paid for their position. Not all are criminals or privateers, but they all are certainly hoping to get re-elected, and that sets the tone for the necessary underpinnings of a plutocratic government. The fact of low men fighting among themselves, creating huge chasms of philosophical dissent, has allowed the unparalleled success of that plutocracy..The citizen was meant to rule, not private groups--or for that matter, government representatives.
"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerated the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power."
Franklin D. Roosevelt
All sad and all true, certainly to a point. Thanks...
No doubt the concentration of wealth and power has become a significant issue in this country that works to undermine the principles of democracy that "we the people" are counting upon to best deliver a best balance between our individual liberties and freedoms with our collective interests. Where I tend to remain optimistic is with respect to the belief in people who are striving for a better way, in government, business and/or as everyday citizens.
They are out there. Those ideas and better ways are out there, and we can either choose to believe there's no hope or hope we do better at supporting those people and those ways of thinking that will make for a better tomorrow here in America and the rest of the world. If not, if we don't try to do what we can, we are surely part of the problem.
It seems to be a deliberate deception, because who would assume that you can totally change the requirements for insurance plans and then tell people if they like their plan they can keep it?
No you can't! If the requirements for your plan change, your plan is done! Which is EXACTLY what happened.
Plans have terms and conditions. All plans were deemed noncompliant, cancelled, and replaced with new plans. Duh! It was a lie.
Also, when Joe Wilson said YOU LIE, he was right. It WAS a lie. Illegals can use the Marketplace.
There are a bunch of "statuses" that allow this to occur...including, most egregiously, illegals who are contesting deportation or removal orders.
Couple ways to look at who did what and why...
Obama could have attempted to explain an incredibly complex subject, for the most part largely unpredictable given all the entrenched vested interests intent on sustaining the status quo, further explaining that his basic assumptions about how the ACA would eventually work were subject to the legislative meat grinder AKA Congress. That's not a realistically viable approach politically speaking when you have so many people more than ready to make mincemeat out of any such honest approach to confessing the short-comings of our legislative and/or political process.
I could go on, but ultimately anyone has to make their own assessment as to what Obama said/did and why. I have not found any evidence that Obama was not sincerely trying to overhaul our health care system in a way that would be better for ALL Americans ALL considered, even if it wasn't an "immaculate conception." I have also not found any evidence that Obama knowingly misrepresented what he believed would transpire once the ACA actually became the law.
Bit more about all that to consider is pretty well covered here, and no doubt there is more than a bit more to consider when all is said and done with respect to what actually happened and why.
"Critics of the law now say millions lost their health insurance. But that’s misleading. Those individual market plans were discontinued, but policyholders weren’t denied coverage. And the question is, how many millions of insured Americans had plans canceled, and how does that compare with the millions of uninsured Americans who gained coverage under the law."
America is divided in many ways for many reasons...
For example, there are Americans who can discuss their political/ideological differences in an adult, intelligent and civil manner. On the other hand there are Americans who can only do so by belittling, insulting and being childish.
Which is Trump? Which is Obama? Who are you?
Intelligence vs civil manner or insulting happens from both sides of the spectrum
while Trump can come off as childish, he is intelligent but speaks more at an average level
Obama was/is an intelligent man an an eloquent speaker most times, but also made some insulting or childish comments (clinging to their... etc)
Hillary came off as a screamer, and very insulting, even though she is intelligent
many times people with high intelligence can come off as belittling or talking down to someone
I would say that 90% of our politician are intelligent (lawyers etc) but most are so wrapped into an ideological path, and set so strongly on that path, that they are only thinking about party, and not the people the represent
Problem with that is, you only live once and there is no prize for spending it in misery.
I've got nothing against divorce, but remaining civil and respectful of one another regardless is what I think most people feel is best for all concerned. Easier said than done of course! Nevertheless, much like the point of this thread, our differences depend largely on what sort of people we believe ourselves to be, at least strive to be, and what sort of country we want America to be.
So evil doesn't exist and Hitler wasn't evil because he didn't think so? I suppose if Trump thinks he's honest, then he's not a liar? If Moore asks the mother's permission then he's not a pedophile? Etc, Etc.?
We both agree that when it comes to our country on the world stage anything goes, but you make it easy to understand why Republicans find lying, cheating, criminal behavior and other immoral acts acceptable in our country's politics. If you find immoral acts acceptable in politics, why not at work? Why not when you're dealing with your family or spouse? It must be hell having such a dark, hateful and pessimistic view of the world and your fellow Americans.
I believe this is one of the major divisions between libs and cons. They don't see themselves as Americans first, rather they see themselves as conservatives first, Americans second. They identify and feel closer to conservative Russians than their fellow liberal Americans. It's the reason why Republicans can ignore the Russians attack on our last election and show no interest in investigating the means to stop it from happening again.
You can bet what when southerners were told that slavery was immoral, they would say, 'The world just is". When women told men they wanted they deserve to vote, what did conservatives say? 'The world just is". When blacks told conservatives they refuse to go to he back door of restaurants, what did conservativces say? Say it with me, 'The world just is".
History shows us time and time again that conservatives by definition don't like change or to see Americans progress, period. Or to put in another way, as the world just is, conservatives just are. Liberals are the ones responsible for all the above improvements in our society, no thanks to conservatives...
Good to consider alternative perspectives in any case. Thanks.
Opinion just is, seemingly regardless facts, reason and logic, and so too the essence of what divides us...
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