Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
When I say "The ends will always justify the means", I am talking about governments, not individuals.
I am explaining to you only what will happen, not what should happen.
All I was really saying is, what is going to happen, is going to happen, with or without you. So why bother concerning yourself with it? The world will move in the direction it has always been going, nothing is going to stop it. If you die, or I die, it will change nothing. And if a meteor hit the Earth and wiped out 99% of us, we would end up right back where we are now, and the future will be just as it will always be.
The world is the way it is for a reason. Good and evil have nothing to do with it.
I took more time this morning to read yet again a lot you seem compelled to explain that you really need not explain to me. You forever take on arguments as if I'm making them and then go on (and on) about why you support your end of the argument contrary to all who you believe disagree with you, me and all the others you think out of touch with reality. I'm not inclined to encourage still more of all that, especially since we seem to agree people don't really change their minds about anything regardless of facts, reason or logic. Accordingly, I don't get the feeling you are reading or understanding a single thing I am explaining to you!
I too consider myself a realist, a pragmatist. I am fully aware how imperialism (and all the other isms) have driven the course of man since the use of fire to keep warm. Essentially the never-ending drive to satisfy self-interests in one way or another. Yes of course, whether as a government, society or as individuals, we look out for ourselves as a rule. Again there is no need to go on about all that.
Take all you write about capitalism, also for example. Again true capitalism means little more or less than private ownership, free enterprise, pursuit of profit. However, I maintain that your simplistic summations about what happens where, when and why is simply that, too simplistic. America's history hasn't demonstrated any sort of pure capitalism or democracy by any means, nor domestic and/or foreign policy that isn't born of self-interest. Duh...
There is a good deal more involved than you seem willing to consider. Take for example just America's $20 trillion dollar economy (about that per year now). Then too the rest of the global economy that you like to argue others don't even know exists (others like me). Wrong again. Ultimately, the fabric of it all are people wanting to make money, trade, exchange goods, have land, gain advantage, take advantage, again as we have been doing since clothes and shiny things began to have value for us.
Yes of course the world revolves around that same quest still today, and some countries have grown as a result of different factors while others have not. Some have gone the way of imperialism while others have not and/or been subjected by imperialism (and all variety of other isms). Again for all variety of reasons in different parts of the world at different times over the course of history for a wide variety of different reasons.
Where we seem to disagree is with respect to how any country may evolve its domestic and foreign policy that may or may not involve other considerations beyond simple basic self-interest. Yes, "the world is the way it is for a reason" and I suppose we can all distill that reason to self-interest, but also of course we cannot deny how different the world is today compared to centuries past and how different the world is in one country versus another.
My focus and greater interest is with respect to the differences, for better or worse, and why they have occurred in the past, present and into the future.
Why bother concerning myself with any of this you ask. Why do you bother arguing all you do? I'm not sure either of us has good reason, but I can tell you I'm not pretending I have much influence if any on how the world will evolve over time. Of course I don't and I don't pretend to be affecting anyone with my comments in this waste-of-a-time forum. That said, I do believe the course of history is largely determined by how we pursue our self-interests -- in different ways -- individually and collectively, and I find the politics that affects those different approaches important, interesting and forever in play. This regardless what role we may play in politics, large or small. I often think perhaps I should have got into politics, but I chose another path (and now I'm retired).
If you don't share the same interest, then maybe you hit on another example of how we're all different in this country and other parts of the world, the subject of this thread. The "great divide" between us that is born from different perspectives; how people think, what we do and why, how. If you feel differently, maybe a thread of a different sort would be more satisfying to you. There's sports for example. Psychology, philosophy. History!
Accordingly, I don't get the feeling you are reading or understanding a single thing I am explaining to you!
I understand what you are saying. But I am confused on why you still seem so hopeful? How can anyone who understands the world, have any hope? Hope for what exactly?
Yes, "the world is the way it is for a reason" and I suppose we can all distill that reason to self-interest, but also of course we cannot deny how different the world is today compared to centuries past and how different the world is in one country versus another. My focus and greater interest is in the differences, for better or worse, and why they have occurred in the past, present and into the future.
Things have changed, but they changed for cynical/selfish reasons. Women were emancipated, not for noble reasons, but so that they could go to work outside the home. The Serfs were emancipated, not for noble reasons, but so that they could go to work for the capitalists in the factories and shops. There is an obsession for tolerance today, not for noble reasons, but so that diverse people can live together and work together, and patronize the same businesses.
All the so-called "progress" of the last 200 years, was done out of economic self-interest, not because it was good. And it wasn't even the economic self-interest of individuals, but rather governments, who have but one goal, "economic-growth".
So, if we then look into the future, sure, there will be even more tolerance. There will be more mass-immigration. There will be a greater push for women and minorities to enter the workforce, and in every field. And the governments of the world will come closer and closer together.
Through trade agreements, there will begin the process of quasi-international governments. Things like the European Union, will keep growing, and expanding, and centralizing power. Until the current "nations" of the world will slowly become nothing more than provinces of vast unions/federations/etc. And even these unions will come together, forming even greater unions, until the entire world becomes one vast union.
And then what? Will that be a utopia? Will there be equality? Will there be strong communities and families? Who will rule the world? And how would it be maintained?
What is the point of life anyway? And what actually makes people happy?
To me, that world sounds like hell on Earth. But it is inevitable.
But do you disagree? Are you happier than your ancestors?...
If everything is so great, then why is everyone so unhappy?...
This will be my last post in this thread, so you can have the last word.
Regarding your first question, I would say yes. I think that happiness is for the most part, the result of someone's view of life and their psychological makeup. From the time humans first evolved to now, there have been extremely happy to extremely depressed people. It comes back to the old; Is the glass half full or half empty?
I believe all the progress we've made, both scientifically and legislatively has at least greatly increased the opportunities to find happiness. Consider our advances in medicine, until relatively recently more people died of TB than any other single cause, cancer survival rates have gone way up, etc. Having access to good health care leading to a healthier long life, gives many the chance for happiness denied our ancestors.
Look at our relatively recent labor laws. Providing employees with health and safety regulations and antidiscrimination laws have given millions the opportunity for happiness our ancestors never had. During my grand parents era, people worked 6 days a week. You don't believe that an extra day off every week provides more opportunities to find happiness? And while it may have caused some unhappiness to racist scum, blacks have much more opportunities for happiness now than in the 1920's when lynching's were an almost a daily occurrence.
But no matter how far civilization has advanced, there will always be some that never find it, as the over 100 suicides every day show us. It's like the old saying about leading the horse to water but being unable to make him drink, in may ways, it's the same with happiness...
Regarding your first question, I would say yes. I believe all the progress we've made, both scientifically and legislatively has at least greatly increased the opportunities to find happiness. Consider our advances in medicine, until relatively recently more people died of TB than any other single cause, cancer survival rates have gone way up, etc. Having access to good health care leading to a healthier long life, gives many the chance for happiness denied our ancestors.
I find it sad that you don't even know what happiness is. You seem to be ascribing happiness to living a long life. But what does living longer have to do with happiness?
Are you saying that, through medical advancements, if we increased the average life-expectancy to 120, that we would be happier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sd-bound
Look at our relatively recent labor laws. Providing employees with health and safety regulations and antidiscrimination laws have given millions the opportunity for happiness our ancestors never had. During my grand parents era, people worked 6 days a week. You don't believe that an extra day off every week provides more opportunities to find happiness? And while it may have caused some unhappiness to racist scum, blacks have much more opportunities for happiness now than in the 1920's when lynching's were an almost a daily occurrence.
I wish you would think even further back in history. What do you think life was like for say, the Native-Americans before Columbus? What was life actually like in the middle-ages?
What do labor laws and anti-discrimination laws have to do with anything other than our recent ancestors? Prior to capitalism, labor laws and anti-discrimination laws didn't exist, because there was no point to them existing in the first place.
Imagine yourself, living in some quiet village, surrounded by family and life-long friends. Working together every day. In some beautiful scenery, surrounded by nature.
It should be obvious to everyone that we have become less happy, and we don't understand why. We seem to have everything, and yet, we feel empty.
Just that economically we’re going in different directions and nearly all of the growth is in the large metros, which tend to be blue areas even if they are in red states. That’s probably why the nostalgic yearning for the good old days is so strong in red state America. A lot of it is different economies at work; information and service economies prevalent in large metros that have been growing versus manufacturing or mineral extraction in the smaller urban areas and rural areas where growth has been comparatively flat.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
