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Old 03-21-2008, 11:48 AM
 
2,265 posts, read 3,732,180 times
Reputation: 382

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
I really don't see this to be true. In the 50s and 60s when many Americans worked manufacturing jobs, families owned car, had a house of about 1,500 square feet, a small yard, and little else.

In today's world a house under 2,500 square feet is small. You need room for your three cars, your boat, your RV. You need a back yard large enough for your hot tub, below ground pool, and your trampoline. The problem in today's world is not that the middle class is any worse off, it is that they are never content, and end up using credit to live the high life, typically reserved for the Upper classes. They then lose everything they own, when they can no longer make payments on all of their toys, and seem quite poor. All at the same time, if they had spent within their means they would be living a life not quite as extravagant as the upper classes, but considerably better than working class families in the 1950s. It is the materialistic nature of our society today which puts on the appearence of what you have is never enough, and that you are underprivileged. The problem is neither a Democratic or Republican issue, but a personal issue. In the end however the Right will typically have no sympathy for over spending, where as the Left see it as an opportunity to gain power and influence through bail outs, and special programs.

The shift towards Republicanism among the middle class the fact that those working want to keep their money, and not have to support those who do not. The influx of Republicanism came in the 80s & 90s when the economy boomed due to a lack of government interference. Even Clinton saw this and didn't do too much to screw up the economy Reagan built.

Unfortunately a Corporatist big government Republican administrstion running under the guise of conservatism has taken it upon themselves to spend every last dime they can get their hands on and then some. Now the economy is on the down swing due to the same credit mistakes that are made by individuals who spend out of their means.
Perfectly said.
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Old 03-21-2008, 11:57 AM
 
Location: The Woods
18,356 posts, read 26,486,435 times
Reputation: 11350
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
I really don't see this to be true. In the 50s and 60s when many Americans worked manufacturing jobs, families owned one car, had a house of about 1,500 square feet, a small yard, and little else.

In today's world a house under 2,500 square feet is small. You need room for your three cars, your boat, your RV. You need a back yard large enough for your hot tub, below ground pool, and your trampoline. The problem in today's world is not that the middle class is any worse off, it is that they are never content, and end up using credit to live the high life, typically reserved for the Upper classes. They then lose everything they own, when they can no longer make payments on all of their toys, and seem quite poor. All at the same time, if they had spent within their means they would be living a life not quite as extravagant as the upper classes, but considerably better than working class families in the 1950s. It is the materialistic nature of our society today which puts on the appearence of what you have is never enough, and that you are underprivileged. The problem is neither a Democratic or Republican issue, but a personal issue. In the end however the Right will typically have no sympathy for over spending, where as the Left see it as an opportunity to gain power and influence through bail outs, and special programs.

The shift towards Republicanism among the middle class is because the fact that those working want to keep their money, and not have to support those who do not. The influx of Republicanism came in the 80s & 90s when the economy boomed due to a lack of government interference. Even Clinton saw this and didn't do too much to screw up the economy Reagan built.

Unfortunately a Corporatist big government Republican administrstion running under the guise of conservatism has taken it upon themselves to spend every last dime they can get their hands on and then some. Now the economy is on the down swing due to the same credit mistakes that are made by individuals who spend out of their means.
Materialism is the problem. My grandparents were not in much debt for what they owned in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's and 70's and 80's, they grew up in the early 1900's, and were use to having less, and the Great Depression taught them further the dangers of materialism, and not having debt except while young freed them so they could enjoy their lives. The average American family now has both parents (assuming there even are kids) working full time and barely able to keep afloat under their debt load and taxes, and they're never content. Always need more electronic junk to keep the kids busy (since the parents aren't home or don't care), new cars or SUV's, must eat overpriced convenience food since no one wants to cook, etc. And some people think I'm nuts for rejecting all this stuff. But I'll be far freer and happier in my little cabin than the middle class couple living the materialistic lifestyle.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,765,227 times
Reputation: 24863
I guess that by failing to avail myself of all the credit available over the last few decades I missed out on the big house, the fancy car every three years and expensive vacations and all the rest. But then I am just a frugal Democrat without much debt to pay off before I retire.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,765,227 times
Reputation: 24863
The biggest loss of working class voters happened when LBJ supported the Voting Rights Act and finally allowed southern blacks to vote and destroyed white electoral privilege. The Dixie Dems instantly became racist Republicans. Then the real leaders of the Republican Party were free to shaft the working class.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,684 posts, read 6,885,366 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
But then I am just a frugal Democrat without much debt to pay off before I retire.
I have a hard time believing that the decline of the middle class is a Democratic or GOP issue, as there are members of both parties that share the same views of how we got there, they might not share views on how to fix the problem.

A better question than "How has the GOP appealed to the working-class?" would be "How has either party appealed to the working-class?"

The Democrats want to tax everything that moves, which turns off a lot of the working class because they would rather keep their money, and be left to their own devices.

While the current crop of GOP leaders has played favorites with various corporations, which isn't true free-market system Capitalism, and also does not promote fiscal responsibilty, either in the government or in personal finances. But because they still do support low taxes they tend to attract the working-class.

When a bi-partisan plan is implemented (economic stimulus package) the plan is half baked at best and doesn't address the true cause of our problems. The plan only promotes more spending which gets us into these predicaments in the first place.

No body on either side of the aisle wants to take responsibility for their mistakes, and mistakes have been made on both sides. When neither side will admit mistakes have been made, and the proper changes are not made to fix the solution, everybody, rich and poor, loses.
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Old 03-21-2008, 02:09 PM
 
1,573 posts, read 4,062,803 times
Reputation: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
I really don't see this to be true. In the 50s and 60s when many Americans worked manufacturing jobs, families owned one car, had a house of about 1,500 square feet, a small yard, and little else.

In today's world a house under 2,500 square feet is small. You need room for your three cars, your boat, your RV.
In alot of places, you don't get a choice anymore. You want a new house that isn't in a slum, it has to be big. Call it the "supersizing" of housing, just like alot of other stuff. In my mind, this is more of an example of market failure than greedy Americans. Alot of people could theoreticly live in smaller houses... and save alot of money. But they don't want to live in mobile homes or apartments, either.

Also, this buying spree is enabled by easy credit and low interest rates. There isn't much point in saving a little money in your neighborhood bank anymore, with the interest rates being so low- inflation will kill your savings in a few years. You might as well stick it under a mattress, or blow it on something.

The real problem is we've got a money policy that punishes small investors and people who save and we've got fiscal and government policies that aren't building infrastructure for future needs.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
30,976 posts, read 21,626,486 times
Reputation: 9676
The GOP has provided many thousands of military jobs through the war in Iraq. Surely the pay is better than at Wal-Mart or McDonalds. The GOP involvement has also led to many thousands of jobs in the private sector to support the Iraq War along with the operations in Afghanistan and other nations.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,935 posts, read 4,998,854 times
Reputation: 604
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
I have a hard time believing that the decline of the middle class is a Democratic or GOP issue, as there are members of both parties that share the same views of how we got there, they might not share views on how to fix the problem.

A better question than "How has the GOP appealed to the working-class?" would be "How has either party appealed to the working-class?"

The Democrats want to tax everything that moves, which turns off a lot of the working class because they would rather keep their money, and be left to their own devices.

While the current crop of GOP leaders has played favorites with various corporations, which isn't true free-market system Capitalism, and also does not promote fiscal responsibilty, either in the government or in personal finances. But because they still do support low taxes they tend to attract the working-class.

When a bi-partisan plan is implemented (economic stimulus package) the plan is half baked at best and doesn't address the true cause of our problems. The plan only promotes more spending which gets us into these predicaments in the first place.

No body on either side of the aisle wants to take responsibility for their mistakes, and mistakes have been made on both sides. When neither side will admit mistakes have been made, and the proper changes are not made to fix the solution, everybody, rich and poor, loses.
I don't get the impression that most Democrats want to tax the working class more, necessarily. A lot of the time the conservative response I hear to Democrats like Obama calling for "middle and working class tax cuts" is "why favor the middle and working class, they already only pay a small portion of the taxes, first we need to concentrate on not punishing the rich so much," or something of that nature, or maybe it's just an inaccurate sampling of the people I've heard, read and talked to. Conservative proposals like the Flat Tax(TM) and the Fair Tax(TM) would shift more of the tax burden onto members of the middle and working class. And in very conservative states like Alabama, the poor and working class aren't taxed much less overall than in Massachussets, for example, from reports I've seen... it's mainly the large corporations and wealthy owners of vast land that get the biggest breaks.
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Old 03-21-2008, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,454,776 times
Reputation: 27720
I don't think it's either Dem or Rep. I think it's big business running the government for their benefit.
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Old 03-21-2008, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,684 posts, read 6,885,366 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
I don't get the impression that most Democrats want to tax the working class more, necessarily. A lot of the time the conservative response I hear to Democrats like Obama calling for "middle and working class tax cuts"
The problem with Democratic tax cuts is they never happen. Bill Clinton oversaw the largest tax hike in history. Middle class taxes went up.

Republicans are often blamed for giving tax cuts to the rich, but yet, everyone benefited from the Bush tax cuts, middle class and rich alike. About the only thing Bush did right.
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