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I get not wanting to pay for people who came her illegally, who have manipulated the system, etc. But in the case of the dreamers, they came here as innocent children and at this point we've already paid to educate them.
When liberals start appealing to the personal characteristics of the people who represent a clear political problem and for whom a liberal outcome would vastly benefit the democrats, conservatives naturally and rightly recoil. Appealing to their "innocence" as children is a bad road to go down, politically speaking. It feels like a politically motivated manipulative argument because it is.
Yes, "we" paid to educate them due to an illegal immigration problem caused by by border control policies that were and are too liberal. Thus, to conservatives, being forced to educate them felt and feels like coercion.
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They've all either on their way or already are, educated adults who have never committed crime since arriving in the USA.
Those aren't compelling enough reasons to grant citizenship.
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In other words, they are worth money to our economy. Whether we wanted to or not, we've invested in these individuals and they're all set up to be a positive force on the economy.
The political problems and opportunity costs to citizens aren't worth whatever supposed (and unspecified) monies that they are worth. Though, I will also note that, the way our system is set up, technically all people are worth something to the economy if merely just for the increase in the credit and debt that the country can issue. That doesn't make every person who is sneaks in here from the second and third world an ethical or viable candidate for citizenship.
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If you wanted to kick these people out, the time to kick them out was just as they arrived here. Not after we already invested money into their educations.
As if liberals allowed for that on the needed scale.
We're going to do it now. Better late than never.
Again, with the educational money thing. Perhaps if educating them didn't feel like political strong-arming in the first place then that argument would be viable. It does, and so it isn't.
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Why should we educate these people, set them up for a successful life and then boot them out for another country to reap the benefits of our investment?
We're good. Mexico needs a boost too. Consider it a gift.
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Forget compassion. Just think of the simple dollars and cents. You don't buy a property, invest in it, improve it, and then just give it away for free. Why should you do this with people?
It's a nice, if not tired, attempt at making a politically motivated argument using a financial argument that you perceive (or perhaps merely hope in an attempt o redirect conservative motivations) is a priority for conservatives.
It isn't. Our priority is the following: not to allow the democrats to benefit from a couple of million votes that stem from the illegal immigration issue caused by liberal politicians.
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So if it makes economic sense, it's the compassionate thing to do and a bunch of republicans already support a pathway to citizenship, why do so many republicans and Trump still oppose a pathway to citizenship for dreamers?
1. Your sense of Republicans being primarily a party of economics is faulty.
2. "A bunch of Republicans" also opposed Trump and the popular will of the conservative base.
Most of the conservatives in the nation hold the mainstream GOP in high contempt. A change is underway, bu it will be a few more election cycles before its complete.
3. Before, you said that you were not appealing to compassion. Now you say that you are.
Let me tell you this: you (and liberals in general) are ruining the good name of compassion every time you decide to appeal to it for political ends that benefit you. We don't care about your emotional appeals that are thinly wrapped manipulations in order to win politically.
I swear, its like being on a bus that never stops with a sociopath. The endless emotional manipulations are exhausting to this nation's sense of balance.
However, like anyone who lives with a sociopath, we have become numb to the manipulations over time.
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The only reasons I can think of is that they're racist or not terribly bright.. or both.
Ah... there it is.
I should have guessed that a liberal couldn't go an entire argument without releasing the barely disguised simmering rage in the form of personal attacks.
You almost made it. In spite of my disagreements with the tacks taken in your general argument, I must say that it represented a rare sober response from a liberal on this board. Even if it was manipulative, for a while it attempted to make an actual argument. That was progress.
Until your bursting emotional control mechanism failed at the very end and the knives came out. So sad. Well, at least its easy to see you people coming. You aren't going to sneak up on anyone anytime soon, are you?
Dreamers are by definition, individuals who have never committed a crime and have grown up in America and been educated in American schools.
While I don't necessarily agree with most conservative immigration policies, I can at least understand the point of view. But the fight over the dreamers doesn't make a bit of sense, and I think that's the reason over 30 Republican Congressmen disagree with the larger stance of their party and support a pathway to citizenship.
I get not wanting to pay for people who came her illegally, who have manipulated the system, etc. But in the case of the dreamers, they came here as innocent children and at this point we've already paid to educate them. They've all either on their way or already are, educated adults who have never committed crime since arriving in the USA. In other words, they are worth money to our economy. Whether we wanted to or not, we've invested in these individuals and they're all set up to be a positive force on the economy.
If you wanted to kick these people out, the time to kick them out was just as they arrived here. Not after we already invested money into their educations. Why should we educate these people, set them up for a successful life and then boot them out for another country to reap the benefits of our investment?
Forget compassion. Just think of the simple dollars and cents. You don't buy a property, invest in it, improve it, and then just give it away for free. Why should you do this with people?
So if it makes economic sense, it's the compassionate thing to do and a bunch of republicans already support a pathway to citizenship, why do so many republicans and Trump still oppose a pathway to citizenship for dreamers?
The only reasons I can think of is that they're racist or not terribly bright.. or both.
As a legal immigrant, I fully support the already existed pathway to citizenship. It’s called “apply for legal immigration like every body else!”
What you want is not a pathway to citizenship. You want amnesty!
A large number of instant Democrat votes are always a partisan issue. The labor pool is a partisan issue. Rewarding liberal immigration politics with unorthodox liberal citizenry is a partisan issue.
As late as 1960, 30-some percent of blacks voted for Richard Nixon. Then in 1964 the R nominee voted against the Civil Rights bill, the southern segs migrated to the GOP, and blacks have voted 90% D ever since.
As late as the early ‘90’s, 40+% of California Hispanics voted Republican. Then, Pete Wilson, facing a tough re-election, latched onto Prop 187 as a wedge issue. In the short run, he was re-elected but in the long run, he destroyed the Cali GOP by turning Cali Hispanics into a nearly monolithic D voting bloc.
Reading the demographic tea leaves after the 2012 election, the R establishment proposed immigration reform with a path to citizenship. Instead, the R base responded by nominating and electing a hard liner on immigration as POTUS. But the demographic numbers haven’t changed. Every generation will continue to be more diverse than the one that preceded it, no matter how many illegals you deport.
If millions of illegals are deported, Republicans run the risk of nationalizing the Prop 187 affect, turning a 60% D Latino vote for Democrats into a totally monolithic vote with devastating political consequences.
Dreamers are by definition, individuals who have never committed a crime and have grown up in America and been educated in American schools.
While I don't necessarily agree with most conservative immigration policies, I can at least understand the point of view. But the fight over the dreamers doesn't make a bit of sense, and I think that's the reason over 30 Republican Congressmen disagree with the larger stance of their party and support a pathway to citizenship.
I get not wanting to pay for people who came her illegally, who have manipulated the system, etc. But in the case of the dreamers, they came here as innocent children and at this point we've already paid to educate them. They've all either on their way or already are, educated adults who have never committed crime since arriving in the USA. In other words, they are worth money to our economy. Whether we wanted to or not, we've invested in these individuals and they're all set up to be a positive force on the economy.
If you wanted to kick these people out, the time to kick them out was just as they arrived here. Not after we already invested money into their educations. Why should we educate these people, set them up for a successful life and then boot them out for another country to reap the benefits of our investment?
Forget compassion. Just think of the simple dollars and cents. You don't buy a property, invest in it, improve it, and then just give it away for free. Why should you do this with people?
So if it makes economic sense, it's the compassionate thing to do and a bunch of republicans already support a pathway to citizenship, why do so many republicans and Trump still oppose a pathway to citizenship for dreamers?
The only reasons I can think of is that they're racist or not terribly bright.. or both.
Arguments like this are why the Left is losing and will continue to lose. "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid and a racist!" You come across like a small child who is incapable of making an argument that is able to stand on its own merits so you feel the need to poison the well. I'm sure you thought your closing line was some type of slam dunk too. What a joke.
A large number of instant Democrat votes are always a partisan issue. The labor pool is a partisan issue. Rewarding liberal immigration politics with unorthodox liberal citizenry is a partisan issue.
Poll after poll shows this to be a fairly nonpartisan issue.
Reading the demographic tea leaves after the 2012 election, the R establishment proposed immigration reform with a path to citizenship. Instead, the R base responded by nominating and electing a hard liner on immigration as POTUS.
I don't think Trump opposes citizenship for DACA. The reason to oppose citizenship for illegals is they stayed here illegally and deserve nothing. They are not the American dreamers and sweethearts you are making them out to be. They are net Democrat voters, counter-voters, counter-culture and competitors for American resources and opportunities.
So - let me get this straight. Let's say you were brought here at age 6 by your parents. You didn't want to leave you friends and family but you had no choice. You grew up here; memories fade and you can't really even remember any other life.
But YOU ~ would suddenly at the age of 18 - self deport to a country you don't even know or remember.
Poll after poll shows this to be a nonpartisan issue.
Polls after polls showed Hillary had 98.43729648% of chance winning the election!!!!
The American public have long been misled and lied to by the dishonest media, and they largely have no clue what immigration means and means to them. Except for immigration lawyers, I have yet to meet a American who knows squat about immigration.
How could a person having any informed opinion on a subject he has no clue about?
Last edited by lifeexplorer; 01-28-2018 at 10:46 AM..
Poll after poll shows this to be a nonpartisan issue.
More polls from the liberals... (and here noticeably not referenced).
They are always demonstrably accurate and credible. Hillary is going to be President in a landslide victory, amirite?
Polls quoted by liberals have about as much credibility as wishful thinking, currently.
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