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That is a fair point. However, consider a comparison America of that era to France and Britain of that era.
In the late 18th century, John Adams was sent by Congress to France and then Britain to perform various diplomatic tasks. One of the first things he said upon arriving in France was "Every place swarms w/ beggars."
Later when he went to Britain he found not dissimilar conditions. Adams also found incredible opulence in both countries that he had never seen in America. Both also had leviathan states (albeit not welfare states) but Adams did find "armies" of courtiers, clergy, and soldiers.
Leviathan government, incredible opulence among the few, and grinding poverty among the many. Kind of reminds me of what we have in America today....
Yeah, pay no mind to those Leviathan corporations, it's all about the big bad government.
True. In 1820, more than 70% of Americans lived on farms and thought of themselves as farmers. Our cities weren't nearly as populated- in fact, in 1815, the population of the entire United States was less than the population of New York City alone today.
The poor were out there then, just as they are today. But instead of living in overcrowded slums in over crowded countries as they did in Europe, many were likely either in the Poor Farms or subsistence farming as Dman suggested.
The conservative desire to return to pre-New Deal era America is quite pervasive.
When you have an ideology and refuse to waver from the dictated course, you'll try to find anything to justify it.
My local paper ran a big article on L.A. homelessness yesterday. In spite of hundreds of millions of dollars spent, the problem grows worse by the month. It's the same or worse in Seattle.
It wasn't always like this. In the early 1800's, there was a steady stream of visitors to the U.S. from Europe. People like novelists Charles Dickens, Anthony Trollope, and historian Alexis de Tocqueville
wanted to see the new experiment for themselves. According to Brit historian Paul Johnson:
At the time there was virtually zero welfare state in the U.S. No food stamps, no Section 8, etc. But according to Brown U. historian Gordan Wood, there were over 1400 privately funded 'benevolent' orgs in the U.S. by 1817, including some devoted to housing the indigent.
Homelessness before leviathan gov't was virtually absent. After 100 years of big government programs, it's far out of control.
What?????
What?????
"According to one observer, the number of homeless children in New York City fluctuated between 20,000 and 30,000 in the 1870s. This meant that as many as 12% of school-age children were homeless."
This is an excellent thread. We currently prohibit fathers of families live with their families. Non violent men should live with their wives and kids so that children have a man in the house. We should have a good team of investigators who go after welfare cheats with immunity to political influence. If you want to see who are the real burden on the welfare system, google "lakewood nj welfare". They have cash business on the side and their families are on welfare.
My local paper ran a big article on L.A. homelessness yesterday. In spite of hundreds of millions of dollars spent, the problem grows worse by the month. It's the same or worse in Seattle.
It wasn't always like this. In the early 1800's, there was a steady stream of visitors to the U.S. from Europe. People like novelists Charles Dickens, Anthony Trollope, and historian Alexis de Tocqueville
wanted to see the new experiment for themselves. According to Brit historian Paul Johnson:
At the time there was virtually zero welfare state in the U.S. No food stamps, no Section 8, etc. But according to Brown U. historian Gordan Wood, there were over 1400 privately funded 'benevolent' orgs in the U.S. by 1817, including some devoted to housing the indigent.
Homelessness before leviathan gov't was virtually absent. After 100 years of big government programs, it's far out of control.
There were no Wal-marts, destruction of small businesses and export of jobs either.
So no matter how you look at it, it's the America's rich that screwed up their own country, so you address your frustration in the wrong direction)))
Do you have any source about the extent of these 'poor farms' in the U.S? According to Gordon Wood's book Empire of Liberty, which covers US history up to 1815, many of the 'benevolent' orgs were formed by political leaders, but they were funded by charity, not tax dollars. If I'm wrong about the existence of tax-funded poor farms, thanks for the correction.
Regardless, the overall point remains: there was very low homelessness/vagrancy in America in the early 19th century. Now after about a century of gazillions spent on welfare, homelessness is crazy out of control.
Ever hear of the "orphan trains?"
Know why they originated?
"Between 1854 and 1929, a quarter million abandoned babies and “street rats†(as the older children were referred to by police) left slums in New York, Boston, and other coastal cities aboard trains, headed for new lives in the country."
"According to one observer, the number of homeless children in New York City fluctuated between 20,000 and 30,000 in the 1870s. This meant that as many as 12% of school-age children were homeless."
Thank you for the link. Note that post #1 is largely about the early 19th century. That was when the European visitors were coming over to observe the newly formed Republic. Also, NYC may be a skewed sample. Just I guess, but perhaps many of the NYC homeless in 1870 were recently arrived immigrants.
Is the concept of "the working poor", foreign to you?
Until all companies are in a position to pay a living wage, the working poor will exist.
Also, if you eliminated welfare, would you want the poor or elderly unable to work to starve? I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic with your post.
The conservative desire to return to pre-New Deal era America is quite pervasive.
When you have an ideology and refuse to waver from the dictated course, you'll try to find anything to justify it.
Post #1 is merely a statement of facts, not ideology. When you have an ideology and refuse to waver from it, you'll ignore stated facts, and concoct objections based on what you imagine to be in the fact presenter's mind.
Post #1 is merely a statement of facts, not ideology. When you have an ideology and refuse to waver from it, you'll ignore stated facts, and concoct objections based on what you imagine to be in the fact presenter's mind.
No, the original post WASN'T a statement of facts, it was a statement of some other persons OBSERVATION that fits cozily into your ideological agenda when transposed against the present. The observation used as a measure of then vs now has been pretty much debunked thoroughly in numerous posts since.
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