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Status:
"I don't understand. But I don't care, so it works out."
(set 17 days ago)
35,665 posts, read 18,029,124 times
Reputation: 50706
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
Anybody see how the 5 person request card could result in even a worse situation regarding inclusion and exclusion?
Yes. And that's the old "dance card" thing. Gads who thought that would be a good idea. Maybe from the 20's - 40's?
My mother used to laugh and say, if we asked if this would be a good time to come see her, "Yes. My dance card this weekend is embarrassingly empty - please come"! The thought of an actually embarrassingly empty dance card would come to mind for me. No thanks.
Like the mom in the article, you are assuming that the so-called lesson from this dance, that girls "can't say no to a boy," translates to ANY situation they will face. That's just not true at all.
I'm sure your kids and grandkids are smart enough to understand context and situational etiquette. For THIS DANCE, saying yes is the rule. In fact, that used to be how social dancing worked "back in the day." It even applied to men... guys would "cut in," and the current partner had to let him. It's part of it.
Only someone who is truly impaired would think that means they can NEVER say no to someone.
Like with anything, it's a parents' job to EXPLAIN things to kids. Sure, it's more fun to turn and flounce out on your heel while yanking your child out of whatever the offending program is, but it sure doesn't teach them anything worthwhile.
Are you implying I'm impaired?
Yes, yes yes, back in the day, social etiquette required that you HAD to dance with a guy, who 'cut in'. Back in the day is where most women learned that you didn't get to choose who you partnered with, because society (men) decided for you, who you got to dance with, marry, and have sex with. And if you weren't agreeable to those things, well too bad.
Back in the day, daughters were used to settle wars, gain control of countries, and otherwise sold off (married off) by family to settle disputes. Those were...happier times?
THIS DANCE is a public school event, and the lesson to be learned is...it's rude to say no to a boy. Because "no, but thank you for asking" is too rude. THAT'S the take away.
I get that you think I'm over-reacting, but I'll disagree with you on that. As I said before, either we believe that we have control over our bodies, and that's what we'll teach our children, or you don't, and you're teaching that it's situational, and that there are times when you must conform when the authority requires it.
And I would, most def, flounce out on my heel, with my child, and reinforce the lesson that THEY get to decide when they want to say no to someone touching them.
So apparently, this school has had this policy of NOT turning down anyone who asks you to dance. You HAVE to say yes, and dance with whoever asks you. This is a bunch of 6th graders.
The school is saying it's about being inclusive and teaching kindness.
.
The school isn't teaching kindness..it's teaching tolerance and acceptance of school rules...whether the student agrees with it or not.
My children (especially the boys) absolutely dreaded and hated dance class...something they were required to attend.
I could never explain to them why it was required of them....especially when they would rather do ANYTHING (math included) than be forced to dance for extra marks and the teachers pleasure.
It shouldn't be include in the curriculum...it has nothing to do with learning...it's all about teachers exerting control over their young students. Pitiful in my opinion.
Only someone who is truly impaired would think that means they can NEVER say no to someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy
Are you implying I'm impaired?
If you actually believe that attending this dance = always submitting to a boy, then I'm not implying it. I'm stating it outright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy
Back in the day, daughters were used to settle wars, gain control of countries, and otherwise sold off (married off) by family to settle disputes. Those were...happier times?
See, this is how I KNOW you're overreacting. Extrapolating something like this to "the enslaved condition of women through time..." is mere hyperbole. While you're at it, you should just go ahead and theorize that sending kids to public school makes them mindless sheep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy
THIS DANCE is a public school event, and the lesson to be learned is...it's rude to say no to a boy. Because "no, but thank you for asking" is too rude. THAT'S the take away.
That would be the knee-jerk takeaway of an alarmist parent who is more concerned with taking up a flag than actually cultivating their child's sense of cognitive discretion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy
I get that you think I'm over-reacting, but I'll disagree with you on that. As I said before, either we believe that we have control over our bodies, and that's what we'll teach our children, or you don't, and you're teaching that it's situational, and that there are times when you must conform when the authority requires it.
And I would, most def, flounce out on my heel, with my child, and reinforce the lesson that THEY get to decide when they want to say no to someone touching them.
Not surprising. That would be the lesson to teach if you thought that a school dance is all about "touch." There are many, many more lessons to teach here, if you'd calm down a second and think about what you're reading and saying.
There is a difference between "should say yes" and "can't say no." Anyway, it looks like the whole thing was fleshed out more in the thread so it isn't as bad as it initially sounded. It's still not the smartest policy to have IMO.
I disagree. It is a school function. It is the school policy that everyone should be included. What has happened since folks were recognizing inclusion as a good thing back in the 80's.
Asking that the kids dance together when asked is not the polarizing situation that some folks are determined to over-react to. It is simply to allow all kids to participate during this school event.
This mother totally over-reacted....and the fact that it was important enough to become an article shows how far this extreme reaction has become normalized in our society today. Sad
[quote=BirdieBelle;51021338]If you actually believe that attending this dance = always submitting to a boy, then I'm not implying it. I'm stating it outright.
If you can't tell a boy "no", than that's submitting.
See, this is how I KNOW you're overreacting. Extrapolating something like this to "the enslaved condition of women through time..." is mere hyperbole.While you're at it, you should just go ahead and theorize that sending kids to public school makes them mindless sheep.
I get how you would think that. I do. But I don't see it as hyperbole. Women have ALWAYS been taught to submit. That lesson needs to change, and little girls need to learn, need to have it ingrained in them, that THEY get to decide. That it's NOT impolite to tell a boy, or a man 'NO', (and for the record, there ARE polite ways to say 'no'.)
I don't mean to imply that public school makes kids mindless sheep. But in THIS situation, it doesn't seem to matter what the kids think, and it's about making compliant sheep.
That would be the knee-jerk takeaway of an alarmist parent who is more concerned with taking up a flag than actually cultivating their child's sense of cognitive discretion. I'm not even sure exactly what this means. But what's the point of cultivating a child's sense of cognitive discretion, when the school district says "F***k your discretion. We're the authority, and we're telling you that you have to dance with people you don't want to dance with."
I would prefer to reinforce to my child that I believe and they should believe they get to decide who they dance with.
Not surprising. That would be the lesson to teach if you thought that a school dance is all about "touch." There are many, many more lessons to teach here, if you'd calm down a second and think about what you're reading and saying.[/quote]
I'm calm enough at this point, but I'm interested in what all those other lessons are to teach.
It reminds me of a place where I take dance lessons. Over time, it's become Chicago's #1 dance school. They have a rule discouraging (but not prohibiting) you from turning people down. That is, if someone asks you, and they haven't done anything to make you uncomfortable, then it's considered polite to accept their dance offer at least once. The dancing is strictly G-rated: double handhold or standard closed position, no full-body contact. At the same time, the dance community is self-policed. If someone knowingly creeps on the women, word will get around fast.
But I digress. I see lots of problems with implementing a "no turning people down!" rule. First off, it takes away choice from girls who are just learning to assert themselves romantically. Second, if a girl reluctantly accepts a dance from boy she's not attracted to, he will know. Because there's a huge difference in how a girl dances with a boy she likes or at least feels comfortable with, vs. how she dances with a boy she dislikes (read: plain-looking and/or socially awkward). All due to the kids' hormones running wild at the age in 6th grade. Not to mention, popularity tend to be very polarized in middle school.
TL;DR: a rule that works well in a self-policed adult dance class will backfire at a middle school dance.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 02-14-2018 at 10:48 AM..
Who says it's only the boys who will do the asking? I bet they're letting the girls do the asking, too. Kids these days don't adhere to the old rules of only the boy does the calling and the asking.
I wouldn't doubt that, seeing that it is Utah, that they are teaching the girls that it is too "forward" to ask a boy to dance, and that they should wait to be asked.
That's another thing I like about my dance community - everybody can ask everybody, just be polite about it and respect it if you are told "no."
It reminds me of a place where I take dance lessons. Over time, it's become Chicago's #1 dance school. They have a rule discouraging (but not prohibiting) you from turning people down. That is, if someone asks you, and they haven't done anything to make you uncomfortable, then it's considered polite to accept their dance offer at least once. The dancing is strictly G-rated: double handhold or standard closed position, no full-body contact. At the same time, the dance community is self-policed. If someone knowingly creeps on the women, word will get around fast.
But I digress. I see lots of problems with implementing a "no turning people down!" rule. First off, it takes away choice from girls who are just learning to assert themselves romantically. Second, if a girl reluctantly accepts a dance from boy she's not attracted to, he will know. Because there's a huge difference in how a girl dances with a boy she likes or at least feels comfortable with, vs. how she dances with a boy she dislikes (read: plain-looking and/or socially awkward). All due to the kids' hormones running wild at the age in 6th grade. Not to mention, popularity tend to be very polarized in middle school.
TL;DR: a rule that works well in a self-policed adult dance class will backfire at a middle school dance.
I don't have a problem with this. A dance school is a outside of school activity. To me, this is where "cognitive discretion" would come in to play. If you want to learn to dance, then it's implied that dancing is part of the program, which you are voluntarily agreeing to.
In public school dances, kids go (and yes, I realize it's voluntary to go to a school dance) and primarily, it's about hanging with their friends, and MAYBE dancing, and MAYBE participating in slow dances. But at THIS school, the kid can't say, "no thank you."
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