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Old 03-04-2018, 10:58 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,479,823 times
Reputation: 10096

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
China doesn't export that much steel to the US, the major suppliers are the EU, Canada, South Korea, Mexico etc.

As for Trump's it's easy to win a trade war rhetoric, those words may come back to haunt him.

In terms of the steel industry it's not labour intensve any more, with a few workers and modern technology now doing the work of what used to be many thousands of workers, and this is therefore unlikely to be big in terms of job creation nor is it a smart move in terms of US production costs and inflation or in relation to US Exports. America may have the largest economy in the world but that doesn't mean it's a smart move to engage in a trade war with the entire world.

So far officials from Europe, Asia and South America are promising retaliation and Australia is considering tariffs on US goods, whilst neighbours Mexico and Canada who are NAFTA members are going to increasingly consider NAFTA to be pointless if the US continually stops free trade. Still at least you haven't upset Africa and Antarctica, although give Trump time.

Five reasons why trade wars aren't easy to win - BBC News
All of the jobs are not coming back, but we do need to maintain a steel and aluminum industry for national security reasons. Same with food, telecoms, etc. Right now these other countries have jacked up their tarriffs and their anti-competitive regulations and requirements in such a way that they are very competitive in our markets, but we cannot compete in theirs. Also, again, we MUST maintain a domestic steel and aluminum manufacturing industry, regardless of the cost.

As far as the threats to retaliate and the whining in your second paragraph about how terrible it is that we have "upset" our trading partners, this sounds a lot like the drivel that you were semi-defending about people not being legally allowed to speak if it "offended" someone.

What a crock. These countries' high tarriffs on our products, their full-on subsidization of many of their most "competitive" industries, and their imposition of rules and regulations that make their markets either extremely difficult or effectively impossible to penetrate has BEEN OFFENSIVE TO US. But again, that only is supposed to work one-way by the sort of logic that wants to use this kind of argument, doesn't it? And these country's conduct actually has been truly "Offensive" towards us in the literal meaning of the word. Meanwhile, you are actually suggesting that they might be "Upset" by what are actually our "Defensive" response to their "Offensive" actions against us.

It is time to lose the double standards, in our rhetoric, in our domestic politics, and in our international relations, including trade. The time is now. When we reach that threshold, that will be the time for everyone to settle in and not be "Upset" anymore. Until then, you and your buddies will just have to suck it up and deal with it. You all started this, so you have nobody to shift the blame to but yourselves.

 
Old 03-04-2018, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,781,218 times
Reputation: 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
The advantage the US has over Canada is that the US has 10X the population, combined with the low transport costs that come with being next door. I don’t have any problem with Canada, and I don’t want to see a trade war with them, but let’s be real here, their potential losses are far greater than ours if we were to cut off trade with them
Initially yes, but it just requires a realignment and shift of trade from a U.S centric model to a more diversified one (which is what It is currently doing signing free trade agreements with Europe and Pacific Rim-TPP countries just in the last year). The U.S btw was the biggest proponent of the current trade schema. It isn't until Trump that that has changed.

It isn't just value of trade or how big a country is either. It is also what you are trading. Energy for example - until the U.S is completely energy self sufficient, It will need Canadian energy. I'm not talking just about oil but also hydro-electric etc. It is also about supply chain integration. So we've built these things up mutually over decades. It is kind of difficult on both sides just to 'cut it off' - but with the U.S having more people - just means more people with power shortages or oil shortages etc.

Ultimately though, with the above - all it means is that both Canadians and Americans suffer and end up paying more for everything. Great solution lol!
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:04 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,479,823 times
Reputation: 10096
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Find one positive article on a trade war that isn't some propaganda piece of a ride or die Trump supporter.

You can't.

Years and years and years of articles, studies, research, historical analysis on tariffs, trade wars, etc. and none of it ends well for consumers.
So in these articles that are universally opposed to tarriffs and trade wars, what do they suggest is the answer when a whole group of countries increase their tarriffs, hugely subsidize many of their most "competitive" industries, and establish domestic rules and regulations that effectively make their markets nearly impenetrable - against one country that has not responded yet.

When counseling that one country that has been most obvious target of these anti-competitive actions, what do your anti-tarriff and anti-trade war sources suggest that this country do in the face of a long-term pattern and established practice of the behaviors noted in the previous paragraph?

Because that is the situation we are dealing with here.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,622 posts, read 26,292,175 times
Reputation: 12634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
What you just mentioned isn't sovereignty, it's tyranny. Our foundation isn't based on control, it's based on the rights of the individual and freedoms.
Yes, but your freedom to swing your arms in the air ends where my nose begins.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:12 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 4,474,258 times
Reputation: 3981
Who is this trade war supposed to hurt? If its china its a big swing and a miss.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:20 AM
 
8,478 posts, read 3,302,337 times
Reputation: 6859
American-style capitalism for generations operated to the primary benefit of the capital-holder although labor increasingly claimed some of the gains with the rise of unionism while most of the rest of the world took a somewhat different tact.

No argument that more statist-governments - including those with very different political models, take China and Germany - have over the years been more "protective," focusing on building industries and creating jobs with national welfare a prime goal.

The problem with tariffs is that they are a sledge hammer that do not begin to address the complexity of global trade. A last-gasp protectionism will come at a very steep price - market volatility (losses) - inflation - national security losses - reduced American influence - and almost certainly accomplish little.

It's the wrong TOOL. And to cry foul because the rest of the world isn't going to play isn't going to cut it. No longer do we consume most of the world's output.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:20 AM
 
13,586 posts, read 13,069,149 times
Reputation: 17786
I'm perfectly fine with this policy. The elite have been using this country as a cheap hooker where they take what they want and leave poverty in their wake.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto
15,106 posts, read 15,781,218 times
Reputation: 5196
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacoder View Post
Who is this trade war supposed to hurt? If its china its a big swing and a miss.
Exactly - It is not hurting China. It'll do a better job hurting reliable suppliers of materials and energy from friendly countries to the U.S. It has to leave one begging the question about what is the motivation of this. I don't think it is what is being portrayed.

That all said, it is premature. All we know is Trump has yelled this stuff out in a news conference and tweets. Nothing is official yet and countries like Canada may be exempt simply due to the extreme interrelationship of their economies. Canadian factories are actually or have been up until now considered part of the U.S defense industrial base.

Trump's steel tariff could drive up Canada's military procurement costs - Politics - CBC News

Quote:
Such measures would be a threat to the unique relationship between the two countries, which "share the most integrated defence industrial base in the world," said a 12-page briefing note obtained by CBC News under access to information legislation.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:25 AM
 
5,527 posts, read 3,221,704 times
Reputation: 7762
Internet keyboard warriors are more likely to oppose tariffs because they are probably digitally savvy professionals who benefit from global trade, either through working in the export sector or buying cheap goods, and having their jobs protected from competition because of education levels.

However the steel and aluminum tariffs are supported by the public by a ratio of 2-1.
 
Old 03-04-2018, 11:26 AM
 
21,430 posts, read 7,413,043 times
Reputation: 13233
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacoder View Post
Who is this trade war supposed to hurt? If its china its a big swing and a miss.
I understand the goal, and I am sympathetic. Trade imbalances are not good for the country.

I just hope he doesn't set off the long-overdue recession.
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