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If the villagers had done their duties and not cooperated with the VC, or had killed the VC themselves, then it would not have been necessary for the US Army to conduct operations in that area.
Civilians should be killed in war.
The more civilians killed, the faster the war will end. It is civilians who pay taxes to finance wars, and who provide all of the war materiel to continue the war.
To allow civilians, who aid and abet, who are conspirators, who are complicit and who are accessories to the war to escape any kind of punishment is manifestly unfair.
Says the person who believes waterboarding is wrong. LOL
If they did recognize his heroism, it took a long time and I never saw or read anything about it.
Damn the US Army for turning innocent young boys into merciless killers for a war that was none of our business.
The US Army didn't turn them into merciless killers. The war and the cult of personality did.
Mob mentality and all that. I wonder what you consider innocent?
War has a way making you dehumanize the enemy. Add to this a really bad leader, a few followers and you get war crimes.
Those on the left will make excuses all day every day, for the rioters and looters like the idiots in Ferguson, let a 1 soldier go astray and its the whole army that is at fault.
The US Army didn't turn them into merciless killers. The war and the cult of personality did.
Mob mentality and all that. I wonder what you consider innocent?
War has a way making you dehumanize the enemy. Add to this a really bad leader, a few followers and you get war crimes.
Those on the left will make excuses all day every day, for the rioters and looters like the idiots in Ferguson, let a 1 soldier go astray and its the whole army that is at fault.
Yeah..
This is why I posted, we know exactly why the story of My Lai is so important to some of these people.
They can say, "The military turns soldiers this way." as if all soldiers are like that.
"My Lai" is more of a TV media hypocritical propaganda than anything else. There were carpet bombing of civilian population centers during Vietnam War. It's more like Syria, internal fight invites foreign powers dropping bombs.
I'm sure a lot of 90 year olds in Europe and East Asia especially would strenuously disagree with that one, regardless of which side they were on.
Japanese and Germans supported and even encouraged their governments to engage in warfare. Why shouldn't they suffer the same fate as their soldiers, for whom they paid taxes to support and worked to provide war materiel to allow them to continue to engage in warfare?
All governments are of the people, by the people and for the people, regardless of whether the government is a republic, a democracy, a monarchy or dictatorship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230
Also, by that standard, if there's ever another global war, I suppose our great dreaded enemy would be justified in dropping 100 napalm canisters on America's residential subdivisions (Simi Valley, Schaumberg, Plano, Fairfax, Westchester County, etc.)? If you say "No, they don't have that right", then you admit that is wrong to kill civilians who "pay taxes and finance wars, and who provide all of the war material to continue the war".
I don't have an issue with it. If they don't want to be bombed, then they should elect a government that does not engage in war, and if the government does, then those people have the choice of over-throwing the government, or fleeing to safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil75230
Perhaps it's time for us to ask Germany how they train their soldiers to resist orders to commit massacres.
Under the right circumstances, it is inevitable that German soldiers, just like any other soldier from any other country, would commit massacres.
Even Reserve Police Battalion 101, made up of police officers from Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg, engaged in massacres during WW II, and they were hardly soldiers of any sort.
Japanese and Germans supported and even encouraged their governments to engage in warfare. Why shouldn't they suffer the same fate as their soldiers, for whom they paid taxes to support and worked to provide war materiel to allow them to continue to engage in warfare?
All governments are of the people, by the people and for the people, regardless of whether the government is a republic, a democracy, a monarchy or dictatorship.
I don't have an issue with it. If they don't want to be bombed, then they should elect a government that does not engage in war, and if the government does, then those people have the choice of over-throwing the government, or fleeing to safety.
Under the right circumstances, it is inevitable that German soldiers, just like any other soldier from any other country, would commit massacres.
Even Reserve Police Battalion 101, made up of police officers from Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg, engaged in massacres during WW II, and they were hardly soldiers of any sort.
Japanese and Germans never supported or even encouraged their governments to engage in warfare. You are not being honest.
WOW, really?
Not even all German soldiers are SS party members, many Japanese were drafted and were forced to fight. They have been told, "Americans are going after you" So the government encouraged the Japanese people to commit suicide.
That is why ALL civilians are victims of war.
I have a relative who was the result of war crime. She was a product of rape and lived a miserable life in the post war Japan. Is it her fault? She didn't ask for it. Women were not even allowed to vote, Mr, big guy. Many German women have been raped, did they ask for that?
A good compassionate person will never post something you have just posted. I cannot believe people like you even exist.
I've met several ww2 veterans myself. NONE believes the same way you do. They made me realize that the world is actually a better place. You, on the other hand..
Last edited by lilyflower3191981; 03-17-2018 at 07:03 PM..
"My Lai" is more of a TV media hypocritical propaganda than anything else. There were carpet bombing of civilian population centers during Vietnam War. It's more like Syria, internal fight invites foreign powers dropping bombs.
There was no "carpet bombing" of civilian population centers during Vietnam.
This is why I posted, we know exactly why the story of My Lai is so important to some of these people.
They can say, "The military turns soldiers this way." as if all soldiers are like that.
One must admit - when you get honest stories of guys like a US Senator:
"Kerrey's SEAL team first encountered a villager's house. Later, according to Kerrey, the team was shot at from the village and returned fire, only to find after the battle that some of the deceased appeared to be under 18, clustered together in the center of the village. "The thing that I will remember until the day I die is walking in and finding, I don't know, 14 or so, I don't even know what the number was, women and children who were dead", Kerrey said in 1998. "I was expecting to find Vietcong soldiers with weapons, dead. Instead I found women and children."
It wasn't so rare, either, among longer term grunts.
I think you have to take it down to most grunts (and I don't blame them) because obviously the VAST majority of people in the military never see any combat in a serious sense. Sure, the guys back at the base had rockets and mortars lobbed in once in a while, but the vast majority of the military is not walking into rice paddies or clearing villages - even in Vietnam.
My friend who were there were so traumatized that they rarely, if ever, discussed it. A few committed suicide back here in the states - even 20 years later. Sad. Another would give a small taste of what happened when he was drunk. I didn't know what to say when he started on about cutting people to pieces with a machine gun.
One friend that somewhat made it back in a semi-sane fashion told me some stuff, but it was not about who they killed, but rather about seeing his friends and the other cav guys with him hit with armor piercing stuff (the VC, etc. got ahold of some stuff later in the war that could pierce armor)...also, he told me about gun clearing accidents back at base...basically people just died and were wounded all the time. As the soldiers there said "don't mean nothing".
There are really a lot of good books out now written by those who were in the thick of it (and otherwise)...a lot of them dealt with their PTSD and finally, after 30 or so years, it was part of their recovery to finally tell the tales. One of them about a heli pilot...I had to stop reading because it was giving me PTSD.
I think we can sum it all up and say that the fault was at the top - from the Pentagon and the POTUS down, but even more at various command levels. Westmoreland and McNamara lied to the US Citizens, Soldiers and even to the POTUS...gave them false hope when even a new grunt could often see the effort was fruitless.
It certainly was not our finest hour. Officers looking for promotions and ribbons sending draftees and fine young men to missions that were not needed...body counts became the Big Thing.
Not good. My Lai was just one incident brought to the public's attention more...maybe due to some Press being there soon after it happened.
Folks should read the books and scan the "Pentagon Papers" and make up their own minds.
Vietnam, many of us thought, was a lesson learned. From current events I have to say it wasn't...in fact, now we have wars without a goal and without end. Sad.
One must admit - when you get honest stories of guys like a US Senator:
"Kerrey's SEAL team first encountered a villager's house. Later, according to Kerrey, the team was shot at from the village and returned fire, only to find after the battle that some of the deceased appeared to be under 18, clustered together in the center of the village. "The thing that I will remember until the day I die is walking in and finding, I don't know, 14 or so, I don't even know what the number was, women and children who were dead", Kerrey said in 1998. "I was expecting to find Vietcong soldiers with weapons, dead. Instead I found women and children."
It wasn't so rare, either, among longer term grunts.
I think you have to take it down to most grunts (and I don't blame them) because obviously the VAST majority of people in the military never see any combat in a serious sense. Sure, the guys back at the base had rockets and mortars lobbed in once in a while, but the vast majority of the military is not walking into rice paddies or clearing villages - even in Vietnam.
My friend who were there were so traumatized that they rarely, if ever, discussed it. A few committed suicide back here in the states - even 20 years later. Sad. Another would give a small taste of what happened when he was drunk. I didn't know what to say when he started on about cutting people to pieces with a machine gun.
One friend that somewhat made it back in a semi-sane fashion told me some stuff, but it was not about who they killed, but rather about seeing his friends and the other cav guys with him hit with armor piercing stuff (the VC, etc. got ahold of some stuff later in the war that could pierce armor)...also, he told me about gun clearing accidents back at base...basically people just died and were wounded all the time. As the soldiers there said "don't mean nothing".
There are really a lot of good books out now written by those who were in the thick of it (and otherwise)...a lot of them dealt with their PTSD and finally, after 30 or so years, it was part of their recovery to finally tell the tales. One of them about a heli pilot...I had to stop reading because it was giving me PTSD.
I think we can sum it all up and say that the fault was at the top - from the Pentagon and the POTUS down, but even more at various command levels. Westmoreland and McNamara lied to the US Citizens, Soldiers and even to the POTUS...gave them false hope when even a new grunt could often see the effort was fruitless.
It certainly was not our finest hour. Officers looking for promotions and ribbons sending draftees and fine young men to missions that were not needed...body counts became the Big Thing.
Not good. My Lai was just one incident brought to the public's attention more...maybe due to some Press being there soon after it happened.
Folks should read the books and scan the "Pentagon Papers" and make up their own minds.
Vietnam, many of us thought, was a lesson learned. From current events I have to say it wasn't...in fact, now we have wars without a goal and without end. Sad.
Yep This i agree
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