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You really don't see the bolded as a perfect description of leftist ideology? The entire argument over the 2nd Amendment is an example of the "liberal" belief that the rights of individuals are subject to the interpretation of the almighty state. Further, the main tactic of leftists is the use of race as a defining argument.
That doesn't even touch on the very central fact that a good portion of the hatred of the left towards Trump is based on his loosening of regulations and lowering of taxes that had been put in place by Democrats. Hell, the main difference in the ideologies of the two major parties is the belief of the left in big government (more regulation) and the belief of the right in small/er/ government (less regulation).
Seriously, anyone who can't see the similarity here is too partisan to even discuss politics.
OK. I think we are seeing different things because we have different viewpoints. So let's take apart just the part you have bolded.
Exalts nation and often race over individuals So was is "America First" all about? It is exalting the nation over all kinds of other things. And white nationalists, which the president at least tacitly supports, certainly support their race over other individuals. I can see where you might see "identity politics" in this, but the right also plays the identity game with white nationalism.
Stands for Central autocratic government :I can see where you would think this is leftist, as Democrats are more likely to support a strong central government. But they are NOT for autocratic rule. That is what Trump is all about; he wants his way, without regard for laws, courts, whatever, and has no problem with circumventing them. He is an authoritarian.
Dictatorial leader See above. It is what Trump aspires to, and the Republicans are not doing much to dissuade him.
Severe economic and social regimentation: I can see that Republicans feel they are against economic regimentation and Democrats are for more (often for more taxes, limitations on corporate behavior, limitations on how the environment is used, etc.) But Republicans are for more social regimentation (legislating morality - anti gay, anti-reproductive rights, anti-bathroom stuff, putting prayer into schools, etc.) Both sides want to legislate behavior, they just are concerned with different things.
Forcible suppression of opposition: This is where Trump shines: he hates the press. He calls anything he disagrees with "fake news." He has actually suggested limiting free speech. I can see where you might call "ANTIFA" here, but they haven't been heard from much lately, and they are really the extreme left, not what an ordinary liberal would believe in. No "mainstream" liberal believes in violence to suppress freedom of speech.
So as I said in the beginning, extremism on EITHER SIDE can become fascist. Those who say that fascism belongs to liberals are inaccurate and anti-historical. Also not the other definition that defined fascism as "...any right wing nationalist ideology..."
So yes, I can see the left in parts of this, but if you can't see the right in parts of this, then you are "too partisan to even discuss politics."
On the global scale, American democrats are a center-right party. There are very few leftists in American politics or media. I’ve seen libertarians and even arch conservatives described as leftists, on this site. I have to wonder what makes some of you decry centrists and even conservatives as leftists. Do you guys not know what leftist means? Are you simply making using the label in attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees with you?
These days it seems that if you don't like Trump you are a leftist.
These days it seems that if you don't like Trump you are a leftist.
And that works in both directions and you know it.
Someone wants to control illegal immigration, or advocates for tax cuts, or believes some regulations have gone too far and the accusations of "neo-Nazi, proto-Fascist Storm Fronter" come flying.
That is, unless that person is accused of being a toothless, mouth breathing, meth using, trailer park dwelling, sister ****ing child molester. Some participants in this thread have said such.
While people do use labels wrong, your logic is flawed.
Soccer in US = football everywhere else
Context matters
Not quite. You can call them the American left, but it would be categorically false to call them leftists. Just because you subsist on a diet of deep-fried Twinkies it doesn’t make my french fries health food.
OK. I think we are seeing different things because we have different viewpoints. So let's take apart just the part you have bolded.
We definitely have different viewpoints. I don't like either party, and haven't voted for either party on the national stage for quite a few years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
Exalts nation and often race over individuals So was is "America First" all about? It is exalting the nation over all kinds of other things. And white nationalists, which the president at least tacitly supports, certainly support their race over other individuals. I can see where you might see "identity politics" in this, but the right also plays the identity game with white nationalism.
First, there is no evidence that the President supports white nationalists, either tacitly or explicitly. There are a lot of claims based on misinterpreted statements, but no evidence whatsoever. As for the "America First" movement, that has nothing to do with choosing the nation over individuals. It is about ensuring that we take care of our own backyard before we start helping other nations with theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
Stands for Central autocratic government :I can see where you would think this is leftist, as Democrats are more likely to support a strong central government. But they are NOT for autocratic rule. That is what Trump is all about; he wants his way, without regard for laws, courts, whatever, and has no problem with circumventing them. He is an authoritarian.
The entire 8 years of Obama's presidency was a push for autocratic rule. Look back at how anyone who disagreed with Obama's policies was immediately tarred and feathered by leftists. "Racist" was possibly the mildest term applied to those who didn't support the "fundamental change" that Obama was pushing for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
Dictatorial leader See above. It is what Trump aspires to, and the Republicans are not doing much to dissuade him.
On this, we agree. Although, I don't see Trump's desire to be a dictator as being any stronger than that of previous presidents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
Severe economic and social regimentation: I can see that Republicans feel they are against economic regimentation and Democrats are for more (often for more taxes, limitations on corporate behavior, limitations on how the environment is used, etc.) But Republicans are for more social regimentation (legislating morality - anti gay, anti-reproductive rights, anti-bathroom stuff, putting prayer into schools, etc.) Both sides want to legislate behavior, they just are concerned with different things.
Forcing people to go against their religious beliefs in order to cater to people who live a lifestyle that is in direct opposition to those beliefs is pretty much the definition of regimenting social behavior. While it's true that the right has their share of stupidity in this area as well, (a) does not cancel out (b).
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
Forcible suppression of opposition: This is where Trump shines: he hates the press. He calls anything he disagrees with "fake news." He has actually suggested limiting free speech. I can see where you might call "ANTIFA" here, but they haven't been heard from much lately, and they are really the extreme left, not what an ordinary liberal would believe in. No "mainstream" liberal believes in violence to suppress freedom of speech.
Did you write this with a straight face? The entire run up to the 2016 election, as well as the aftermath, was filled with leftists reacting violently to anyone who wasn't on their side. Trump yelling "fake news" and blabbering on Twitter does not hold a candle to the number of conservatives who were attacked by leftists simply for disagreeing with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
So as I said in the beginning, extremism on EITHER SIDE can become fascist. Those who say that fascism belongs to liberals are inaccurate and anti-historical. Also not the other definition that defined fascism as "...any right wing nationalist ideology..."
The British definition is the British definition. As has already been pointed out in this thread, Britian is so far left that our own leftists would be considered moderates there. Since we're dealing with American politics and not British politics, we should be using the American definition of fascism if we're going to discuss it in this instance. If a situation ever comes up where we are discussing fascism in Britain, the British definition will apply.
There is nothing inaccurate about pointing out the fascism of the leftists. It exists, just as strongly as (if not more strongly than) the fascism of the far right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper
So yes, I can see the left in parts of this, but if you can't see the right in parts of this, then you are "too partisan to even discuss politics."
You can see the left in this, but you are going to great pains to pretend that it isn't as bad as it seems.
Yeah, no. That has nothing to do with left or right. Thanks for playing.
The whole leftist premise of "social equality" is false.
Human beings are inherently unequal.
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