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I'd agree that you would have to have the numbers. I think the idea that you would get the numbers is utopian. I think even if there were enough at a given time the idea that it would persist through generations is also utopian.
That, I think is a reasonable stance, although I disagree. Lots of reasons I'm optimistic in the long term, but even in the short term the idea is picking up steam.
I also believe in its sustainability because I compare it to slavery, where the countries who abolished it likely aren't going back to it anytime soon. Human experience accumulates, and we learn from the past. It's obviously possible that we revert back to old barbaric practices, but I think we can keep going, as long as we don't forget the past.
I have a question for you AnCaps. Since you know what you seek will never actually happen, are you content with living here rather than becoming an expat somewhere else? Isn't the US the closest you can get to it? Do you work as hard as you can to get to where/what you want?
How do you know what the market costs of those things would be? How many competing police services do we have currently? If you had told me 20 years ago I could buy a 60" TV for $600 I would have thought you were nuts.
Even if you and I could afford 1 full time personal bodyguard. It would make no difference when some people have access to billions of dollars and could hire full time private armies. How would stop a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet from just seizing all of your stuff? You couldn't. So the very wealthy would then be able to seize the monopoly of power and your Libertarian pipe dream would very quickly become a Oligarchy.
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Originally Posted by rebeldor
Prisons still have armed guards and no freedom of movement. Supplies are also strictly controlled and black markets flourish due to that. A stateless society has no such restrictions.
I used prisons as an example of how humans have a tendency to set aside individualism and form gangs and tribes when their is a void of power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeldor
Governments, due to wars, genocides, and centrally-planned famines, killed over 200 million in the 20th century. China's collectivist famine killed nearly 30 million alone. The Soviet famines killed tens of millions. Imagine how much better it would have been if there had been no centrally-planned economy.
Yeah centrally planned economies didn't work out very well, neither does non-regulated Capitalism. In one hand you have famine and in the other you have child labors being worked to death in factories. Neither sound very appealing to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeldor
Please show your documented proof of the murder rate being 20 times higher in an anarchist society.
Collapses in government or any central political authority historical leads to an explosion in crime. Russia's homicide rate after the collapse of Communism shot through the roof. Voids of power once filled by the Communist party became up for grabs and the competition for power always leads to massive amounts of violence. An anarchist society would follow this trend except on a biblical scale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeldor
Humans are basically wild animals who would kill, destroy and pillage if they had the chance...
So let's let humans rule over other humans, by force, and allow them to kill us if we resist.
Wow. Just wow.
You don't think large companies in a Libertarian system aren't going to abuse, enslave and kill you when it suits their interests? You can't be that naive
Even if you recognize a philosophy as moral and logical do you abandon it because it isn't reflected in the larger society when you socialize with the other humans?
Nah, you keep it and work within the confines of the system you are in to attempt to effect gradual change to move society closer to your ideals. That means in your case voting and advocating for people with non interventionist, no non violent crimes, decrease govt scope, etc.
Why do we not remove all states throwing the world into chaos and then wait around to see what emerges from the ashes? When we already know the answer: more states, just different ones? Why the hell WOULD we do that?
Like T0103E said, it's about educating people about the evils of the State. Nothing can be done by force. States that dissolve involuntarily always descend into chaos.
People DO want to be free, contrary to popular opinion.
Or--"In your Statist utopia, what if the tax-funded government police forces get too power-hungry and start shooting unarmed people like it's target practice? What if your politicians start taking money from corporations and represent their interests instead of the people who voted for them?"
Oh wait--that's current Statist reality.
What if you grow up in an impoverished urban ghetto artificially created by statist manipulation of economies, freedom of association, and freedom of movement? What if your State sanctions, protects, and promotes nefarious activities between itself and street gangs to the point that your quality of life is greatly diminished as illustrated by counting shotgun blasts as you fall asleep at night and seeing dead bodies (twice) on your way to school?
I have a question for you AnCaps. Since you know what you seek will never actually happen, are you content with living here rather than becoming an expat somewhere else? Isn't the US the closest you can get to it? Do you work as hard as you can to get to where/what you want?
I ain't in this for the glory. I'm in it for the high!
I ain't in this for the glory. I'm in it for the high!
I was being serious. You cannot get away from the state entirely so you have to accept it at this point. So do you make the statist part of your footprint as small as you can?
Nah, you keep it and work within the confines of the system you are in to attempt to effect gradual change to move society closer to your ideals. That means in your case voting and advocating for people with non interventionist, no non violent crimes, decrease govt scope, etc.
Who watches the watchmen?
You seem to be advocating a system that improves over time to the point of self-dissolution.
Much like Terminator 2 when Arnold must terminate himself will the last ruler standing terminate his rule?
Like T0103E said, it's about educating people about the evils of the State. Nothing can be done by force. States that dissolve involuntarily always descend into chaos.
People DO want to be free, contrary to popular opinion.
So we agree about the consequences of sudden or involuntary state dissolution.
You have to realize that what you are hoping for will never happen right? To think it will is hopelessly idealistic. It just becomes a contrarian position that will never impact reality.
I'd rather work to effect change in the society that I actually live in, because that actually can and does have an effect. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than nothing? I think so.
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