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Old 04-20-2018, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,429,771 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
But, you're ignoring the rest of the scenario, and goods depend on services, try running any factory without electricity and electricians, who provide a service.

Your one person with a key skill has renal failure. Their work product is a dependency of all of your productivity. Joe is the 1000th best plumber of your 1000 plumbers and a perfect tissue match. Joe (like Maxwell throwing hammers in the sea) is harming your productivity by refusing to consent to donating a kidney. You said did you not that Maxwell would be dealt with by the union, or mob, or whoever, because he is violating your social rules. Thus by inference Joe is too (I mean he has a spare).

Seriously you hand wave so much I'm struggling to not think it's all on the fly.
Workers are not tools because they themselves are the end, not the means to an end.

If you have a hammer that is need for the production of something it is a means of production. If you have Joe who is needed to produce something he does not become a commodity rather the entire production line would collapse from inefficiency due to the lack of necessary labor.

You can not turn Joe into the value of a tool because tools are used to help the worker, the workers are not used to make the tools work.

That is the fundamental difference between syndicalism and capitalism; one places the reasoning of a factory and maximizing profit while the other puts the reasoning on maximizing the power of the individual.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,357,575 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
It is your own property.

The only things that need to be classified as a resource or a tool are things that can be used for common production (energy sources, building material, etc.) and tools only need to be classified as means of production when they are used to produce common goods that the society needs for a stable existence (not something of the creative matter or something in terms of futuristic proposals).

Read the comments in your own link, most point out the falsities set by the author in explaining anarcho-syndicalism.
Who decides what can be used for "common production"?

I can make all kinds of cool things with my body parts, boogers, toe nails, hair, etc. When do these things reach the point of being necessary for "common production"?
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,273,469 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
You seem to be beside yourself.

Guess that happens when one believes people are objects, & the owner & the owned are the same object.
Well I seem to understand the definition of inanimate. Mushrooms aren't inanimate, nor are cats or dogs and all can be owned. Do you mean sentient? But I can own a dolphin too.

Why do you think there's any contradiction of the owner and owned being the same object. The clues kind of in the question in regards to self ownership. You seem to be close to passing the event horizon of complete incomprehensibility.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,429,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
You answered a question with a question.

What is a banana? A tool? A resource?

?
The banana is a utility. You can use it in whatever way want.

Unlike a flashlight which shouldn't be broken bananas are made for consumption so eating it will be fulfilling its main purpose.

Besides eating it you can do whatever else you want as long as you don't harm someone unprovoked with the banana.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,357,575 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
The banana is a utility. You can use it in whatever way want.

Unlike a flashlight which shouldn't be broken bananas are made for consumption so eating it will be fulfilling its main purpose.

Besides eating it you can do whatever else you want as long as you don't harm someone unprovoked with the banana.
Who says bananas are made for consumption?

Also, what's your definition of the following:

resource, tool, and utility?

Why can't a flashlight be broken?
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,750 posts, read 3,118,073 times
Reputation: 1747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
You seem to be close to passing the event horizon of complete incomprehensibility.
Which is the end result of all Statist non-arguments.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,273,469 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Workers are not tools because they themselves are the end, not the means to an end.

If you have a hammer that is need for the production of something it is a means of production. If you have Joe who is needed to produce something he does not become a commodity rather the entire production line would collapse from inefficiency due to the lack of necessary labor.

You can not turn Joe into the value of a tool because tools are used to help the worker, the workers are not used to make the tools work.

That is the fundamental difference between syndicalism and capitalism; one places the reasoning of a factory and maximizing profit while the other puts the reasoning on maximizing the power of the individual.
But Joe's kidney IS needed for the production of everything (in this scenario). Renal failure guy is the key person to all production (and he's a really nice guy too, with a hat, and a pipe).
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,429,771 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Who decides what can be used for "common production"?

I can make all kinds of cool things with my body parts, boogers, toe nails, hair, etc. When do these things reach the point of being necessary for "common production"?
common goods provide shelter, food, water, sleep, and clothing. In whatever form something may benefit these basic needs (as explained in Maslow's hierarchy of needs:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow...archy_of_needs) such productions can be deemed common good.

Once you get into the realm of art and creativity the dependence lies on how mainstream that art is to your region and how important it is to the common welfare of society. If deemed important enough by the workers then they will natural treat the tools required for its production as a necessity of sharing between producers of that good.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
5,301 posts, read 2,354,214 times
Reputation: 1229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Well I seem to understand the definition of inanimate. Mushrooms aren't inanimate, nor are cats or dogs and all can be owned. Do you mean sentient? But I can own a dolphin too.

Why do you think there's any contradiction of the owner and owned being the same object. The clues kind of in the question in regards to self ownership. You seem to be close to passing the event horizon of complete incomprehensibility.
Did Chi define ownership yet? I didn't read the whole conversation, but that's an important detail to clear up.

The whole purpose of ownership is to determine who has the highest claim over something, or who has the rightful say over how it's used.

If you don't own your own body... yikes.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,853 posts, read 17,357,575 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeldor View Post
Which is the end result of all Statist non-arguments.
I can at least understand traditional statism. This anarcho-syndicalism is baffling as all hell. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but without tenets and absent the ready-made scenario of workers working I have no idea what's going on.
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