Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,383,003 times
Reputation: 4831

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Capitalism hasn't killed anyone because force initiation is not possible under the free exchange of goods and services.

Statism is the umbrella under which all evil takes place. Many people have used Marxist ideals to propagate States that have been quite murderous. Many people have used capitalist ideals to propagate States that have been quite murderous (The U.S.).

I read up on your philosophy and it doesn't make any sense outside of a labor-based paradigm. It has no principles originating from the basis of the default life settings of a human being (born free from contract and in poverty).

It's simply a way to organize traditional work methods/labor structures if people happen to find themselves doing that.

Some of the tenets are actually pretty agreeable in theory but make no sense as far as a life philosophy goes.
A society based on work and production are only the engines. Art, creativity, can all thrive as well.

Keeping society running via worker run management has proven to be the most democratic and open system to operate under. See what’s happening in the rust belt and else where (https://community-wealth.org/content...ild-solidarity)

Btw, I agree with your second paragraph.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,401,143 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
A society based on work and production are only the engines. Art, creativity, can all thrive as well.

Keeping society running via worker run management has proven to be the most democratic and open system to operate under. See what’s happening in the rust belt and else where (https://community-wealth.org/content...ild-solidarity)

Btw, I agree with your second paragraph.
backstabbing galore....

worker run... backstabbing

system?? you mean NO SYSTEM.... anarchy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,383,003 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
It's less centralized than traditional statism.

"Individual work places" is a collective. Collectives have centralized authority to some degree.

"Individuals" will manage my economy and political system (if that individual chooses to form one).

See the difference?

Like I said, some of your tenets within the paradigm of work stations/factories are actually pretty appealing. The only problem is an involuntary collective is part of the paradigm.

You're simply transferring the control of the means of production from the State to a lesser State.
I may be missing your point (so feel free to correct me).

But my answer from what I understand would be that workplaces (shared by those who work in it) would each be independent from one another. No one Union can have more power than the next. All of them in total are where the power comes from.

As for voluntary vs involuntary. If you work with others you have no right to claim their labor (unless they all ascent to which case you’ll just tell them to vote like you do).

People who choose to work alone won’t be affected by wider society. If you want to go off into the woods and hunt/cook for yourself no one can touch you. If you work in a major production center they you by nature have to share the power with others who help keep it in operation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,383,003 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
backstabbing galore....

worker run... backstabbing

system?? you mean NO SYSTEM.... anarchy
I’m an anarchist as are all real Marxist.

Remember, Marx advocated for the Paris communes to how socialism would work, not authoritarian states.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,401,143 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I’m an anarchist as are all real Marxist.

Remember, Marx advocated for the Paris communes to how socialism would work, not authoritarian states.
so since you self describe yourself as an anarchist... you advocate for the wild west.... backstabbing galore, everyone stepping on each other

communism gets you genocide
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,857 posts, read 17,266,113 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I may be missing your point (so feel free to correct me).

But my answer from what I understand would be that workplaces (shared by those who work in it) would each be independent from one another. No one Union can have more power than the next. All of them in total are where the power comes from.

As for voluntary vs involuntary. If you work with others you have no right to claim their labor (unless they all ascent to which case you’ll just tell them to vote like you do).

People who choose to work alone won’t be affected by wider society. If you want to go off into the woods and hunt/cook for yourself no one can touch you. If you work in a major production center they you by nature have to share the power with others who help keep it in operation.
The last paragraph:

A solitary man lives in the woods and fashions tools, furniture, the whole nine yards for personal use. One day a local factory nearby has a shortage of supplies to produce their widgets. They decide to go to the next factory a few miles away to see if they can acquire the use of their supplies. On the way there they come across the solitary man's encampment. He is 5 miles away fishing when they arrive. Instead of going over to that next factory town to inquire about using those tools can they simply use the solitary man's tools that they've come across? It would save time and his tools are actually better suited for their needs than those in the next factory town.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,857 posts, read 17,266,113 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I’m an anarchist as are all real Marxist.

Remember, Marx advocated for the Paris communes to how socialism would work, not authoritarian states.
Marxist anarchy was his description of a psychological transformation within the human mind as humans socialize/do specific tasks together. It is more of a science experiment...and a bad one at that.

It mentions nothing about what a human being is and what it's rights are at birth.

As I noted the last time we debated this you are simply describing a chess game in which the match is 11 moves in with the pieces already assigned different abilities. Some of your observations are actually pretty logical within the game but this does not make a philosophy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 07:06 PM
 
7,302 posts, read 3,376,705 times
Reputation: 4812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
He was right too. His theories on big government control leading to oppressive private industry were correct (as seen in Nazi Germany).
You mean vs the oppression seen in communist Russia?

Quote:
His prediction of globalization was correct. He gave the working class and leftist a path forward. Rather than bowing his head to the elite he offered a power up structure where no one had the right to another persons labor.
Really? Because the slaves who were often murdered extra-judicially in communist Russia were so much better off?

There is just as much right to offer and refuse to offer labor in a capitalist system as there is the right to profit from another.

Quote:
He inspired real socialists in Chiapas to give rights and power back to the indigenous population.
Any time you are forced at the barrel of a gun to abandon culture, and can be extra-judicially murdered, you have no been given back any power. You've had it taken from you.

Quote:
His work brought forth workers cooperatives like Mondragon, Kantega, and dozens in the Midwest to life letting people work for themselves for the first time in history.
People were always able to work for themselves. Its called a business licence. People were always able to form cooperatives. Those are called corporations.

Quote:
Some accuse Marxism of death
Some?? How about ALL. Marxism being responsible for Communist Russia's death toll is unambiguous. Denial of that fact is equivalent to Holocaust denial x10, given the 10x death toll.

Quote:
but all those deaths would need to be multipled 10 fold to even begin to compare to what Capitalism has brought.
How about: "no". You can't imagine deaths to justify the murder of 100 million. That will never work. Moreover, capitalism has led to a living standard that the world has never seen, even for the poor here. There is no murder phenomenon in capitalis countries that comes close to the ideological and politically justified mass murders in Russia and China.

Quote:
The USSR and the rest would have Made Marx roll over in his grave, he didn’t look towards authoritarianism but towards the Paris communes (which were not as reported in the American press).
No true Marxist, amirite??

Quote:
Building more than prosperity it built harmony. Taking from ancient cultures like Taoism to Zoroastrianism to Buddhism, Marx brought the power back into the hands of the individual and formed a world where masters are not needed to control the labor.
You could always work for yourself.

Quote:
For Freedom, for egalitarianism, and for securing our Earth I salute you good sir.
You are saluting someone responsible for more mass murder and slave conditions in the 20th century than anyone else.

Quote:
In this country there are still Many who want Capitalism and state authority to proceed all else, but these people are in the minority more and more.
Your sense of history as well as the modern US is deeply flawed. That usually occurs when we invite Asian immigrants here, who often take to extremes of thought.

See China's communist sperg-out where they murdered a healthy percentage of their population. See the entire Muslim world.

Quote:
Here, things are changing: This Rust-Belt Town.
Here's a suggestion: when posting a link to a 4,000 word article, summarize it in two sentences. No one is going to trudge through 4,000 words in a communist rag.

Quote:
Towns betrayed by both the state and the private industry are returning power into their own hands.
Betrayed? How? Industry changes and moves. Communism can't stop that.

Quote:
RISE UP people, there is a new dawn for this country and for the world over.
Said communist murderers always, everywhere.

Quote:
Money is not earned from owning stocks or businesses, it is earned from production, and the helping of one man to another.
Is not making and selling "products" a business?

Value is produced in a wide variety of ways. Moving value has value, and is a legitimate way of making money. Financing land, tools, and providing knowledge and administration has value and is a legitimate way of making money. Providing services has value and is a legitimate way of making money.

You don't understand what money is, at its core, to start to describe your issues.

Quote:
To see the morning
Look above the horizon
See the oceans crashing far and wide
And never doubt that of what you see is but a reflection of the past
For the future, no matter how far, is on the horizon
Take another puff, cheech.

Quote:
But together we are united. All of us in our communities, in our families, or here in CD. If we have the will for freedom as Marx called for then we can do the impossible.
You sound young, and the young were always naive enough to be talked into being executioners in Marx's name.

Quote:
Both in peace and war people have struggled and yet one man has inspired the most downtrodden. May his 200th usher in an era of peace and harmony from east to west.
Your inability to provide enough value to finance your survival is not a revolutionary cause.

I used to feel somewhat sorry for you, and your cause in Iran but now I don't.

Asian revolutionaries have long been a major problem everywhere.

Hey, I have a question: If you are such an international globalist, then what does it matter if we depose the religious theocracy in Iran and even replace the people there?

After all, one worker is as good as another, right? Persians are entirely too tainted by Islam to be true Marxists. They should be replaced by better workers. And since you are the opposite of a nationalist, then it doesn't matte if we eradicate the people and the culture there and replace them with those that are more suitable. After all, the core philosophy of the Marxist is the production value of society. Like any machine. Not its spirit, culture, nor anything that would define one person or culture from another. What say you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,383,003 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
The last paragraph:

A solitary man lives in the woods and fashions tools, furniture, the whole nine yards for personal use. One day a local factory nearby has a shortage of supplies to produce their widgets. They decide to go to the next factory a few miles away to see if they can acquire the use of their supplies. On the way there they come across the solitary man's encampment. He is 5 miles away fishing when they arrive. Instead of going over to that next factory town to inquire about using those tools can they simply use the solitary man's tools that they've come across? It would save time and his tools are actually better suited for their needs than those in the next factory town.
Interesting hypothetical.

As society will be based off of egalitarianism it is assumed in such a society people will be less greedy being as there is no need to be (this was as such in Catalonia) so their first reaction wouldn't be to take whatever they see.

So most likely what should happen is the company of men gets one person to stick around to see if anyone is coming back to the camp while the rest go to the nearby factory.

Now if they decide not to do this (which technically shouldn't happen) the individual can go to any which production center and ask for a widget as supposedly a factory would have an excess of them.

Now on the subject of sentimentality (say he personally liked said widget because he has been using it for years) we come to the idea that attachment is the root to all pain so having a distant relationship with the tools (not utilities, but tools) you use can be a positive effect of not having it for too long.

But nonetheless in such a society if there is reason to believe it is in the usage of said person to build/make something then the company of men are obliged to wait and see if anyone is there unless it is an emergence (factory will burn down without the widget). So say the individual has a fire burning, that is a sign this place is still inhabited and it'd be best to wait and ask the current user to borrow it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-02-2018, 07:10 PM
 
15,484 posts, read 10,412,245 times
Reputation: 15739
" Happy birthday Karl Marx, You are the Greatest Human being to ever live "

good grief
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top