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Working definition of capitalism... Pure capitalism is free trade without state interference. You could also replace "state" with any third party that forcefully interferes with two consenting trade partners.
A healthy community requires more than "free trade without state interference". Education & healthcare fr'instance. "Gallbladders ‘R’ Us", X-Rays ‘R’ Us" & "Reading Writing & Arithmetic 'R' Us" are neither suitable nor functional replacements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
Tragedy of the commons... Tragedy of the commons is solved by private property. If something is part of the commons, where no one owns it, individuals have little incentive to maintain it.
If you have a pasture owned by no one (or everyone), people will use it for their own short term gain, which leads to the pasture becoming quickly unusable. When you establish property, the property owners now each have an incentive to maintain their personal plot.
There are many reality-based examples refuting "Tragedy of the commons is solved by private property", here are just 3:
The Cuyahoga River in Ohio caught fire more than 3 times because it was so polluted by industrial waste, today it's clean.
The Exxon-Valdez Oil Spill.
Love Canal & the Hooker Chemical and Plastics Corporation.
Private ownership of 'property' is not always the best 'solution', insisting it is so is an example of the 'false dilemma/dichotomy' logical fallacy.
Respect for human life goes a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
Monopoly game... There's a lot that Monopoly gets wrong economically. One of the ideas behind it is the labor theory of value - that value comes from the amount of labor put in (That's why you collect $200 dollars every time you go around the board).
That's wrong, because value is subjective and comes from consumer demand. You can work as hard as you want creating something, but it's worth nothing if nobody wants to buy it.
So, in the real world your wealth depends on the consumer. In the game, it's based on a roll of the dice, which is pure luck. That's a major distinction that changes everything.
And really, the game is just "who can gain the most state-granted monopolies?" rather than "who is the best entrepreneur?" In the real world, you can't just buy a property, sit on it passively, and people are then forced to pay you, or competition is outlawed, etc. Only the government can do that, so you'd have to be going through them.
Long story short, it's a far better representation of a crony-capitalist or socialist economy with a central bank, not a pure capitalist one.
If you're saying US Congress is being bribed by corporate special interests, no refute.
That 'seats' in Congress are sold on the free market like seats on the NYSE, no refute.
Simply condemning government without considering the free market corporate special interests systems underlying, (i.e. our government is the best that money can buy) is dysfunctional. That is, if pragmatic, & plausible problem-solving in real-time reality is the objective. Consider democracy as a better alternative.
Acknowledging you guys are routinely down on democracy.
Historically & based on reality, unregulated economies lead to competition resulting in waves of business failures, followed by the rise of monopolies, which are then followed by abuses of power.
Many examples of this, just 1:
When the Savings & Loan industry was deregulated in the 80s, fraud & abuse quickly ran rampant, many business failed ...
Removing government regulation, or government altogether, is not a panacea.
[Translation] Consumers are mindless sheep and are easily persuaded to do things that are against their own interest unless they're controlled and led by pure-hearted and intellectually superior Marxists.
I didn't interpret his response that way, but that's just me.
I took it more like externalities are pervasive, differing from time to time & from place to place, pervasive because there is always imperfect information or imperfect risk markets.
Defining externalities here as when the actions of an individual impact on others for which they do not pay, or for which they are not compensated.
You keep repeating that nonsense despite facts that refute it.
WINGISM
LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
Is that clear?
Left = opposition to traditional authority
Right = support of traditional authority
CAPITALIST PRINCIPLES
CAPITALISM - An economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for private profit.
- - - WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY
PRIVATE PROPERTY - "As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217
If you concatenate capitalism with private property, you can see the "inconvenient truth".
❏ - Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are absolutely owned by individuals and operated for their individual profit. -
❏
AND YET WE SEE GOVERNMENT "TAKING" FROM ONE TO "GIVE" TO ANOTHER.
AND TAKING PROPERTY WHILE NOT PAYING JUST COMPENSATION.
Abolition of private property = COMMUNISM.
NOT CAPITALISM.
And that is LEFT WING, not RIGHT WING.
That's the People's Democratic Socialist Republic... since 1933.
Recapping, America's "traditional" system is based on the Declaration of Independence.
"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_lincoln
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, described by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).
STEALTH SOCIALISM
Our Socialist leaders are quite clever. They didn't nationalize private enterprise outright. Instead they imposed a labyrinth of regulations and rules, and a bevy of taxes (39% of the GDP), so that government is indirectly in control, and must be placated first, before any new enterprise is embarked upon - burdened by the bureaucratic red tape and partisan politicians.
The once free Americans now must get permission (license) and / or pay a tax to live, work, buy, sell, travel, build a house, enter occupations, operate a business, transmit, fly a plane, hunt, fish, trade in medical care, buy medicine, cut hair, marry or own a dog. And even after they die, the tax man gets a cut.
Oh, you still need convincing that the Congress is pro-communist?
“The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State; individual so-called “ownership” is only by virtue of government, i.e. law, amounting to mere user; and user must be in accordance with law and subordinate to the necessities of the State.” — Senate Document No. 43, 73D Congress, 1st Session, entitled: “Contracts Payable in Gold”, by George Cyrus Thorpe, submitted to the senate: April 17, 1933
=> “The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State...”
That’s “collective ownership.”
That’s anathema to the fifth amendment and the sacred right of private property ownership. That is an insult to the Declaration of Independence wherein our rights are endowments from our Creator, not the State.
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum , Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.
Sacred right?
The U.S. Congress does not appear to believe that absolute ownership by an individual is the law of the land nor a sacred right, when it acts like the ultimate ownership of all property is in the State.
Welcome to the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America - where that which is not mandatory, is licensed, taxed or forbidden. (And do not forget your ID papers-s-s-s-s-s-s!)
Ironically, all your leftist objections are actually against the communist / collectivist political system in force and effect, while advocating "more" collectivism as the remedy to the ills of existing collectivism. That is fun-nee.
Last edited by jetgraphics; 05-13-2018 at 05:39 AM..
As a lawyer, future Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase argued before the Supreme Court in the case of John Van Zandt, who had been charged with violating the Fugitive Slave Act, that:
Quote:
The law of the Creator, which invests every human being with an inalienable title to freedom, cannot be repealed by any interior law which asserts that man is property.
Additionally, despite all the assertions of the 'people are propertarians' & all the quoting of John Locke to bolster ... one is left wondering why ... Thomas Jefferson substituted "pursuit of happiness" in place of "property" in the United States Declaration of Independence?
You keep repeating that nonsense despite facts that refute it.
WINGISM
LEFT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holds the most left or radical views.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
RIGHT WING - the section of a political party, government or group that holding the views of the Right.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
THE RIGHT - that section of a political party ... which associates itself with traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the right of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
THE LEFT - that section of a political party ... which differs most from traditional authority or opinion and which in legislative bodies is seated traditionally to the left of the presiding officer.
- - - Webster's Dictionary
Is that clear?
Left = opposition to traditional authority
Right = support of traditional authority
CAPITALIST PRINCIPLES
CAPITALISM - An economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for private profit.
- - - WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY
PRIVATE PROPERTY - "As protected from being taken for public uses, is such property as belongs absolutely to an individual, and of which he has the exclusive right of disposition. Property of a specific, fixed and tangible nature, capable of being in possession and transmitted to another, such as houses, lands, and chattels."
- - - Black's Law dictionary, sixth ed., p.1217
If you concatenate capitalism with private property, you can see the "inconvenient truth".
❏ - Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are absolutely owned by individuals and operated for their individual profit. -
❏
AND YET WE SEE GOVERNMENT "TAKING" FROM ONE TO "GIVE" TO ANOTHER.
AND TAKING PROPERTY WHILE NOT PAYING JUST COMPENSATION.
Abolition of private property = COMMUNISM.
NOT CAPITALISM.
And that is LEFT WING, not RIGHT WING.
That's the People's Democratic Socialist Republic... since 1933.
Recapping, America's "traditional" system is based on the Declaration of Independence.
"What I do say is that no man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. I say this is the leading principle, the sheet-anchor of American republicanism. Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."
- - - Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Peoria, Illinois (1854) http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_lincoln
As Lincoln reminds us, under the republican form, promised by the USCON, described by the Declaration of Independence, NO MAN (nor American government) is good enough to govern you without your consent. Without your consent, all that government is authorized to do is secure endowed (sacred) rights (prosecute trespass; adjudicate disputes; defend against enemies, foreign or domestic).
STEALTH SOCIALISM
Our Socialist leaders are quite clever. They didn't nationalize private enterprise outright. Instead they imposed a labyrinth of regulations and rules, and a bevy of taxes (39% of the GDP), so that government is indirectly in control, and must be placated first, before any new enterprise is embarked upon - burdened by the bureaucratic red tape and partisan politicians.
The once free Americans now must get permission (license) and / or pay a tax to live, work, buy, sell, travel, build a house, enter occupations, operate a business, transmit, fly a plane, hunt, fish, trade in medical care, buy medicine, cut hair, marry or own a dog. And even after they die, the tax man gets a cut.
Oh, you still need convincing that the Congress is pro-communist?
“The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State; individual so-called “ownership” is only by virtue of government, i.e. law, amounting to mere user; and user must be in accordance with law and subordinate to the necessities of the State.” — Senate Document No. 43, 73D Congress, 1st Session, entitled: “Contracts Payable in Gold”, by George Cyrus Thorpe, submitted to the senate: April 17, 1933
=> “The ultimate ownership of all property is in the State...”
That’s “collective ownership.”
That’s anathema to the fifth amendment and the sacred right of private property ownership. That is an insult to the Declaration of Independence wherein our rights are endowments from our Creator, not the State.
" Personal liberty, or the Right to enjoyment of life and liberty, is one of the fundamental or natural Rights, which has been protected by its inclusion as a guarantee in the various constitutions, which is not derived from, or dependent on, the U.S. Constitution, which may not be submitted to a vote and may not depend on the outcome of an election. It is one of the most sacred and valuable Rights, as sacred as the Right to private property...and is regarded as inalienable."
- - - 16 Corpus Juris Secundum , Constitutional Law, Sect.202, p.987.
Sacred right?
The U.S. Congress does not appear to believe that absolute ownership by an individual is the law of the land nor a sacred right, when it acts like the ultimate ownership of all property is in the State.
Welcome to the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America - where that which is not mandatory, is licensed, taxed or forbidden. (And do not forget your ID papers-s-s-s-s-s-s!)
Ironically, all your leftist objections are actually against the communist / collectivist political system in force and effect, while advocating "more" collectivism as the remedy to the ills of existing collectivism. That is fun-nee.
None of this changes the fact we are a right wing state capitalist economy.
For context of the soviet subversion of the edu, media, and governance of the US throughout the 20th century, aside from the result the op makes clear in its postings, here are some interesting links...
The Reality of Red Subversion
The Recent Confirmation of Soviet Espionage in America
Stephen J. Sniegoski • September 1, 2003
"Today our entire Corporate Media is shrilly proclaiming—on the basis of absolutely no public evidence—that Christian Russia is on the verge of subverting and seizing control of the American government via the election of Donald Trump. It is therefore highly ironic that in the past all of these same media organs had viciously attacked and ridiculed those who presented the strong evidence that Communist Russia actually did come close to subverting and seizing control of the American government during the 1930s and 1940s, never fully acknowledging their grievous error.
The massive documentation behind this undeniable historical fact has been provided across numerous scholarly books, but much of it is helpfully summarized in this monograph by Dr. Stephen Sniegoski, which is therefore worth republishing. —Ed."
"In an apparent effort to illustrate political simple-mindedness, Carroll Quigley derisively wrote in his noted (at least by the John Birch Society) Tragedy and Hope, that the “same groups who were howling about Soviet espionage in 1948-1955 were also claiming that President Roosevelt expected and wanted Pearl Harbor.”[1] In a previous contribution to The Occidental Quarterly, I dealt with the latter; here I will do some “howling” about the former. According to what until recently has passed as conventional wisdom for the liberal establishment, America in the late 1940s and early 1950s was gripped by a terrible Red scare, a period of anti-Communist hysteria and witch hunts. Malicious “red-baiters” slandered innocent liberals as Communists in order to destroy the reforms of the New Deal and impede peace with the Soviet Union. At most, some of the more “anti-Communist” liberals would concede that there may have been a few Communist subversives, but nothing to justify the terrible anti-Communist overreaction, above all the antics of the demagogic Joe McCarthy. From the 1960s through the 1980s, one of the strongest taboos in American political discourse was the subject of Soviet influence within the United States.
During the 1990s, the release of the Venona documents (see p. 49) by the U.S. government and the partial opening of the Soviet archives forced establishment minds to a reconsideration. Yes, Virginia, there really were Communist spies in the United States during the so-called “McCarthy era.” In fact, it now appears that even the slandered and smeared “red-baiters” of the period were unaware of just how far Soviet Communist subversion had penetrated. It must be added that even during the period of the so-called “witch hunt” there was more than enough evidence to prove the reality of Soviet Communist spying to any objective person. But, of course, if one is going to pass for an “educated,” “respectable” person, objective thinking must be eschewed—it’s simply not a Darwinian survival trait in modern America."
_________________________________
And there is Yuri Bezmenov, who in 1984, made it all too clear to the American people what the soviets had accomplished here within the Cold War, and even BEFORE!
The OP, Tzar Winterfall, is Exhibit A of the outcome of that mess. Too bad the USSR crumbled in the 1990's, and the source of such intense infiltration was cut off; the residual stench presented is going to fade as did the USSR, and the retarded notion of communism.
A healthy community requires more than "free trade without state interference". Education & healthcare fr'instance. "Gallbladders ‘R’ Us", X-Rays ‘R’ Us" & "Reading Writing & Arithmetic 'R' Us" are neither suitable nor functional replacements.
There are many reality-based examples refuting "Tragedy of the commons is solved by private property", here are just 3:
The Cuyahoga River in Ohio caught fire more than 3 times because it was so polluted by industrial waste, today it's clean.
The Exxon-Valdez Oil Spill.
Love Canal & the Hooker Chemical and Plastics Corporation.
Private ownership of 'property' is not always the best 'solution', insisting it is so is an example of the 'false dilemma/dichotomy' logical fallacy.
.
Historically the most polluted countries have been socialist. Chernobyl catastrophe is but one example.
Historically the most polluted countries have been socialist. Chernobyl catastrophe is but one example.
[size=5]We Are #1!![/size=5]
[size=4]We Are #1!![/size=4]
[size=3]We Are #1!![/size=3]
[size=]]We Are #1!![/size=2]
^this is already old^
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respect life.
