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Old 05-19-2018, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,370,077 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
Why not a minute by minute agreement?

Every 879 seconds?

Every 47 minutes?

Every 1.5 days?

Where did this number come from, King Winterfall?
You see, you complicate simple facts to make it sound unbelievable. A worker cannot be bound to give their labor to someone else for NO period of time.

The moment they don’t want to give control over the input to someone else is the moment they are free. No binding contracts that give power to an external individual.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,370,077 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
wrong

in capitalism...I can and will be free to choose my own path, answer ONLY to myself IF I CHOOSE

in Marxism, you answer to the commune, or you're sent to the gulag... you have no freedom, only slavery
False. You have the right to produce what you want, but if you work with others, everyone has equal control over said facility.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,372,496 times
Reputation: 9616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
You see, you complicate simple facts to make it sound unbelievable. A worker cannot be bound to give their labor to someone else for NO period of time.

.
an what do you call Marxism... where YOU the individual worker are bound to a commune where they OWN your labor
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,372,496 times
Reputation: 9616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
False. You have the right to produce what you want, but if you work with others, everyone has equal control over said facility.
false..... because individualism is NOT THE COMMUNE, the commune OWNS the individuals
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,858 posts, read 17,238,413 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
You see, you complicate simple facts to make it sound unbelievable. A worker cannot be bound to give their labor to someone else for NO period of time.

The moment they don’t want to give control over the input to someone else is the moment they are free. No binding contracts that give power to an external individual.
So at any point in time I can simply quit?

What happens when I'm in a job where quitting on the spot would endanger the lives of others?
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
22,216 posts, read 21,516,443 times
Reputation: 7608
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
You see, you complicate simple facts to make it sound unbelievable. A worker cannot be bound to give their labor to someone else for NO period of time.

The moment they don’t want to give control over the input to someone else is the moment they are free. No binding contracts that give power to an external individual.
But they can if they want to - once an external force tries to prevent an individual negotiating an agreed upon contract with another individual or organisation, then it's oppression.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
5,295 posts, read 2,333,342 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
There are no monopolies under capitalism unless no one outside of a lone individual chooses to produce a singular product/service

OR

We are down to the last physical resource that the earth has produced (the last banana, the last piece of coal, etc).

As stated numerous times before your problem is with nature/existence. You'll have to take that up with God, a sacred rock, Superman, or whatever/whoever you worship. That is your cross alone to bear.
That's the whole problem with things like the wage slavery or starvation complaint, or even the focus on privilege. People want to forcefully "fix" (key word: forcefully) things that are no one else's fault - the fact that we're all born into different situations, with different abilities and talents, and the fact that nothing is produced unless someone puts in the energy to produce it or make it useable. It doesn't just exist and then you get to distribute it out.

Every being to ever exist has been and will be born into that reality. You always say that poverty is the default setting, but it seems like most people take everything they have for granted. It really is the mentality of a child, where your parents are expected to provide and care for you. Your need determines what you deserve.

So what it boils down to is penalizing people for things that aren't their fault.
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,370,077 times
Reputation: 4831
[quote=No_Recess;51942612]So at any point in time I can simply quit?

What happens when I'm in a job where quitting on the spot would endanger the lives of others?[/



Production is based on labor (needs). If a product (need) is low (for an individual), more will work there so it is provided to the community.

Production is not competition needed to survive day by day. Union workers tend to stay in a job as it is there own country. If production is stopped for a time it only requires the will of the people to start production again.

Unions don’t produce goods that are not base needs, the community works for themselves, if they have a need, they will work to fulfill it, this is not a reward based system, output itself is the reward.

Communities are self sufficient if the production is based off their needs. If something is low, people will work to provide for themselves using the production center (union).

Workers vote on there own production regulations (safety). If they need a certain position to stay to those safety standards they will either vote to change the safety standards or stop production until that position is filled. If the community is in need of that product they will help the union (join) fill that position.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
4,944 posts, read 2,916,849 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
That's the whole problem with things like the wage slavery or starvation complaint, or even the focus on privilege. People want to forcefully "fix" (key word: forcefully) things that are no one else's fault - the fact that we're all born into different situations, with different abilities and talents, and the fact that nothing is produced unless someone puts in the energy to produce it or make it useable. It doesn't just exist and then you get to distribute it out.

Every being to ever exist has been and will be born into that reality. You always say that poverty is the default setting, but it seems like most people take everything they have for granted. It really is the mentality of a child, where your parents are expected to provide and care for you. Your need determines what you deserve.

So what it boils down to is penalizing people for things that aren't their fault.
I think you are on to something here. Fundamentally conservatives believe that society while imperfect must never be changed unless absolutely necessary. Progressives or lefties see an injustice and try to fix it. If we just listened to conservatives society would never change for the better it would just exist to perpetuate the dominance of the wealthy.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,372,496 times
Reputation: 9616
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornintheSprings View Post
I think you are on to something here. Fundamentally conservatives believe that society while imperfect must never be changed unless absolutely necessary. Progressives or lefties see an injustice and try to fix it. If we just listened to conservatives society would never change for the better it would just exist to perpetuate the dominance of the wealthy.
eh...not quite

for example...

marx saw the capitalism of the mid 1800's as bad....what he didn't foresee is that capitalism has changed/evolved many times in the last 150 years

conservatives look to change LOGICALLY..... progressives look to change illogically with knee jerk reactions (never looking at the 4th or 5th level effects)
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