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Old 05-23-2018, 05:48 AM
 
7,302 posts, read 3,387,757 times
Reputation: 4812

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[quote=green_mariner;51972116]
Quote:
I know it isn't journalistic. Maybe it should have been more clear. I am comparing what the OP does to yellow journalism.

I see the NYT, and I raise you FOX News.
That's not a raise. The NYT is defended as largely journalistic. Fox News has an open reputation for being biased. The difference in perception, itself, being prima facie evidence of liberal bias. I don't even watch Fox News. Its funny how liberals continue to have a widely inaccurate vision of conservative America, one misconception for which is that has most of them getting their news from Fox.

Quote:
The OP is the one making the assumption that the doctor involved was an affirmative action candidate. Burden of proof is on him.
Its not his "burden". Its his opinion. Again, this isn't "journalism" nor a courtroom (and lets be honest, you wouldn't want this argument going to a courtroom).

The wider social perception will be that those who can benefit from affirmative action have. Becoming armchair lawyers, with pedantic pleas to "proof" in response, will never change that.

If standards are lowered for one group, then that is the reputation that the group will have. Mistakes will most often be chalked up to that difference. That's the price for an easier entry into a higher position into society. Nothing will change that either.

Quote:
Until such can be proven, then there is no credibility on the part of the OP.
Again, not a courtroom. See above for the rest.

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Racists have been around for ages. Black doctors have always been scrutinized even before affirmative action existed.
This is more group oriented rationalization that aims to justify a reluctance to give up a racial advantage, at the same time as being resentful of its costs. You can't have it both ways, and never will.

Quote:
Well, remember those words next time someone makes generalizations about YOU based on your race.
Give up the racial advantage in school admissions and that goes away. Otherwise, you have to deal with the resentment of the costs involved in that.

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And by the way, all takes for me is to read history to understand that bigoted behavior and racism have been around forever, regardless of what people know or don't know.
More of the same rationalization.

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As for doctors, some might have gotten in due to affirmative action, but you still have to get through medical school, and for that, you have to be very good at what you do in order to make it.
An open secret is that medical school is largely trivial to pass, as are most health care programs.
Sure, a lot of work. But it doesn't take a lot of brains, relatively speaking. What its about is memorization, and detailed notes for all classes are widely available.

The hardest part about medical school is attaining the grades to gain entry. This is also true of Ivy education.

 
Old 05-23-2018, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,830,530 times
Reputation: 11467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Maybe you are devoid of history, or at least how it applies to the affirmation action case of Allan Bakke. He didn't get into medical school despite having better scores. That alone would be note worthy, as it was based on race based admission of less qualified people. I mean, why would you need to be the best and brightest to become a doctor, right?

What is worse, is that the black student who did get admitted instead of Bakke, and who was championed by liberals like Ted Kennedy as an example of how affirmative action did work, had his licence to practice medicine revoked just a few years later. This after he was cited for gross negligence, incompetence, and repeated negligent acts.
As a bonus of this great example of how affirmative action worked, he botched the delivery of a baby and was put on medical probation.
Guess what he did?
He sued based on "racial discrimination" and was awarded $1 million dollars by some bon bon eating soap opera watching dimwits. That is until a judge threw out the verdict, because the guy was incompetent.
But how do we know this?
Well he was sued several dozen times by various patients.
Oh, I left out a small detail.
He caused the death of one of his patients, among the many who were physically harmed by him.

Bakke on the other hand was admitted to another medical school and went on to be an MD at the famed Mayo Clinic. He unlike the guy who was admitted based on race, never had any medical malpractice claims against him.

The point being that while not all blacks or other minorities are incompetent, many get admission into schools based not on qualification, knowledge, etc., and instead are admitted, hired, promoted, because of their race.
Thus many qualified minorities despise affirmative action also, because it is assumed they got where they are because liberals created a racial discriminatory system that allows inferior applicants to be taken over more qualified and higher scoring non minorities.


`
I see your point, but in this case, the fact that she got into dermatology (one of the most competitive specialties), and achieved board-certification in it (a standardized test and process that is not easy, and is completely objective- i.e. affirmative action can’t help you), demonstrates that she has the necessary medical knowledge skills. Not saying she didn’t benefit from affirmative action at all along the way, but this specific case is more related to the strange personal behavior of a doctor, rather than a referendum on the short-comings of affirmative action, imo.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 05:58 AM
 
7,302 posts, read 3,387,757 times
Reputation: 4812
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I'm asking the questions. By answering a question with a question, you merely show that you're trying to evade a question. It shows a level of cowardice.
It doesn't show that. Its called a "rhetorical question". Its a common debate device.

The fact that you resort to calling me a coward, in lieu of a response, shows me that you are both highly agitated and lacking a response. Its also rude as heck.

You said:

Quote:
BTW, is your goal to have a homogeneous society where certain ethnic groups are excluded? Because that is really all I can gather from your post.
To which I responded:

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Is your goal to force inclusion at the cost of competence? That's what I gather from your post.
Your question was a race baiting non-argument that was meant to "win" the argument by implying "racist", in defense of race-based policies that give one race a quantitative advantage in the performance standards that they need to meet.

My response was to point out that those policies reduce competence at the cost of your inclusion.

Its my prerogative, if not duty, to avoid your cheap race-baiting question that is not so much of a question but an accusation. Right?

Your willingness to defend your absolutely silly and dishonest "question" shows a lack of self awareness. You can get away with, to a degree, posting it once but agitating to have it "answered" shows that you are delusional about how it is perceived and perhaps in regard to your own intent when posting it.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 06:15 AM
 
19,387 posts, read 6,482,407 times
Reputation: 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Someone would say something like that because they are a bigot.

As a side note, I've been under the knife for a surgery. I didn't care what color my doctor was. I needed help and whoever could operate on me, all that mattered was getting the surgery.
I don't care what color my doctor is, either. What I care about is that I get the BEST doctor available, especially if we are talking about delicate surgery to save a vital function (which I have undergone.).

Now is that to say that the doctor before me, who is black, is not the best (or at least excellent)? Of course not. But knowing that a lower standard was applied to people in his group does color (pardon the expression) one's concerns. There is no way to know if that particular black doctor got into med school by virtue of his color, when he would not have gotten in if white, and then tutored throughout his med school years to help him with the material.

That's the downside to AA policies. If you accept students with poorer academic grades and lower scores, who would not qualify but for their color, then it is not much of a jump to wonder if his poorer academic ability might correlate with being a less knowledgeable or astute diagnostician. You can't have it both ways.

Where we do agree is that the inexcusable behavior of the doctor in the video is not related to AA policies.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 06:17 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 4,482,904 times
Reputation: 3981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
I don't care what color my doctor is, either. What I care about is that I get the BEST doctor available, especially if we are talking about delicate surgery to save a vital function (which I have undergone.).

Now is that to say that the doctor before me, who is black, is not the best (or at least excellent)? Of course not. But knowing that a lower standard was applied to people in his group does color (pardon the expression) one's concerns. There is no way to know if that particular black doctor got into med school by virtue of his color, when he would not have gotten in if white, and then tutored throughout his med school years to help him with the material.

That's the downside to AA policies. If you accept students with poorer academic grades and lower scores, who would not qualify but for their color, then it is not much of a jump to wonder if his poorer academic ability might correlate with being a less knowledgeable or astute diagnostician. You can't have it both ways.

Where we do agree is that the inexcusable behavior of the doctor in the video is not related to AA policies.
When you see a new doctor do you ask to see his/her SAT scores?
 
Old 05-23-2018, 06:27 AM
 
19,387 posts, read 6,482,407 times
Reputation: 12310
Quote:
Originally Posted by vacoder View Post
When you see a new doctor do you ask to see his/her SAT scores?
No. SAT scores are for college.

But here's an interesting tidbit: High SAT scores are highly correlated with high MCAT scores, taken four years later. In fact, there is a high correlation between standardized tests taken in elementary school and scores, several years later. Even more, there is a high correlation between MCAT scores and the exam they take upon graduation to get certified.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 07:05 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 4,482,904 times
Reputation: 3981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
No. SAT scores are for college.

But here's an interesting tidbit: High SAT scores are highly correlated with high MCAT scores, taken four years later. In fact, there is a high correlation between standardized tests taken in elementary school and scores, several years later. Even more, there is a high correlation between MCAT scores and the exam they take upon graduation to get certified.
And test scores mean what? Does it correlate to their future reputation as a a doctor? When I go to see a new doctor I look for reviews. If it is a surgery I look for their success rate.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,851 posts, read 5,830,530 times
Reputation: 11467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
No. SAT scores are for college.

But here's an interesting tidbit: High SAT scores are highly correlated with high MCAT scores, taken four years later. In fact, there is a high correlation between standardized tests taken in elementary school and scores, several years later. Even more, there is a high correlation between MCAT scores and the exam they take upon graduation to get certified.
That is why standardized tests and board exams are required in order to graduate from medical school or obtain a license/board certification. This protects the public from someone who is completely incompetent. True that the person with high MCAT scores will probably do well on licensing exams, but not always. There is also an art to medicine (being able to listen to the patient, pick up on clues, etc) that don’t really correlate with MCAT/SAT scores and can be life-saving.

If I have a black physician who is board-certified and genuinely seems caring and interested in my health, I don’t think twice about affirmative action because I know they had to pass all the same exams/certifications to graduate from medical school and get their certifications. If they had an uncaring attitude and weren’t board-certified, my flags would be raised, regardless of race.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Scottsdale
2,072 posts, read 1,632,431 times
Reputation: 4081
Quote:
Originally Posted by YuMart View Post
https://www.facebook.com/wsbtv/video...6823416535695/

Every person in that OR needs to have their license revoked. The state calls nurses 'mandatory reporters' for a reason. The fact that they did not report this the first time it happened should disqualify them from healthcare work.
For starters, I agree that affirmative action is flawed and generally does not help students. Those who are not beneficiaries of the policy point out the bar of academic standards is higher for them (unfairly). Meanwhile, the intendend beneficiaries generally do not benefit from it. Moreover, the policy of affirmative action is rooted back to President Richard Nixon. He never intended it to truly benefit minorities. It was a ostensibly presented as a policy to create more jobs for inner cities and minority residents. But realistically, the true motive was social control - a goal of pacifying the black middle class. By the way, I am Native American. In my observations "affirmative action" with quotoas often leads to an academic mismatch. It's analagous to a 7 min/mile runner being placed in the same wave as the runners who average a 5 min 30 sec/mile in a 10k race. After a couple of miles the 7 min/mile runner will just burnout trying to keep up. If you eliminate affirmative action, only minorities who score on par with the class are admitted, and they generally do well. This has been statistically proven in states that outlawed affirmative action like CA and FL. The number of "admitted" minorities goes down, but the "percentage" of graduating minorities goes up when affirmative action is outlawed. As an engineer, I saw the "mismatch" happen a lot back in the 1990s.
https://www.heritage.org/courts/comm...ority-students

With that said, the practice of singing in the OR is not uncommon. If you read the book "MDs Talk About Themselves" it has many anonymous narratives about the bizarre things that happen in the OR. One doctor noted that a chief surgeon was upset and punched another lower ranking surgeon. The pugilist wasn't satisfied, so he punched him again. Another doctor was having an affair with a nurse who kept ignoring him during surgery. So the surgeon got upset and released some kind of clamp that sprayed out blood. He had done that just to get the nurse's attention.

Granted these are all aging examples from a bygone era. That book is old. But still, the modern physician generally has about one or two pending malpractice claims. Most physicians get sued at some point in the career. The high risk specialties include surgery. Hence, the "black" surgeon is getting sued, but very likely the white surgeons are as well at some point. The problem is that it leads to "defensive" medicine, burnout, and suicide in some cases. The shortage of doctors, volume-based process, and minimum patient interaction seem to be root causes. Sleep deprivation was notorious in the typical 1980s/90s resident (110+ hours/week on multiple surgeries).
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/mal...-sued-most/11/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=yc1q1wVDyxc

https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05...rspective.html

I thought of going to medical school a couple of decades ago but am glad I stayed in engineering. I specialize in healthcare though - medical devices, machine learning, and EHR.
 
Old 05-23-2018, 10:24 PM
 
72,891 posts, read 62,412,310 times
Reputation: 21832
Quote:
Originally Posted by golgi1 View Post

That's not a raise. The NYT is defended as largely journalistic. Fox News has an open reputation for being biased. The difference in perception, itself, being prima facie evidence of liberal bias. I don't even watch Fox News. Its funny how liberals continue to have a widely inaccurate vision of conservative America, one misconception for which is that has most of them getting their news from Fox.
Actually, if you are saying that the NYT is biased and slanted, you also have to admit that FOX News, on the other side of the political spectrum, is biased and slanted too. And I was not talking about conservatives. I was talking about the media.

BTW, it's funny how you paint all liberals with the same broad paintbrush, talk about hypocrisy.


Quote:
Its not his "burden". Its his opinion. Again, this isn't "journalism" nor a courtroom (and lets be honest, you wouldn't want this argument going to a courtroom).


The wider social perception will be that those who can benefit from affirmative action have. Becoming armchair lawyers, with pedantic pleas to "proof" in response, will never change that.
It is his burden. If he jumps to conclusions, he better have proof to back it up. Since there is none to back it up, I compare his tactics to yellow journalism. He wants to whip up a frenzy.


Quote:
If standards are lowered for one group, then that is the reputation that the group will have. Mistakes will most often be chalked up to that difference. That's the price for an easier entry into a higher position into society. Nothing will change that either.
If that group was already looked down on and scrutinized from the very beginning, then it really doesn't matter, now does it.


Quote:
Again, not a courtroom. See above for the rest.
You make a statement and claim it as fact, you better back it up.


Quote:
This is more group oriented rationalization that aims to justify a reluctance to give up a racial advantage, at the same time as being resentful of its costs. You can't have it both ways, and never will.
Actually, what I mentioned was a fact. Blacks were already looked down on group, from the very moment they were in America. Blacks have always had to deal with scrutiny. This surrounding affirmative action is no different.


Quote:
Give up the racial advantage in school admissions and that goes away. Otherwise, you have to deal with the resentment of the costs involved in that.
When Blacks didn't have racial advantage in school, they were deemed inferior to other groups. Nothing new.


Quote:
More of the same rationalization.
Again, prove me wrong.


Quote:
An open secret is that medical school is largely trivial to pass, as are most health care programs.
Sure, a lot of work. But it doesn't take a lot of brains, relatively speaking. What its about is memorization, and detailed notes for all classes are widely available.
Really. Can you prove that medical school is a breeze to go through? Based on what I've been told by people who ARE in medical school, it isn't that easy.

Quote:
The hardest part about medical school is attaining the grades to gain entry. This is also true of Ivy education.
Really? Try memorizing alot of material all at once, with very little room for error.
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