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Old 06-14-2018, 04:59 PM
 
2,956 posts, read 2,325,441 times
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Most people don't realize what those words mean.

My mother contacted me the other day and was happy the "conservative" side won in their little district in Canada. We were discussing this and I simply pointed out that conservatives in Canada would be liberals in the USA. She basically flipped out saying they were conservatives not liberals! How can you say that!

I told her when they are talking about removing single payer healthcare she can get back to me and I'll agree with her. Until then even your "conservative" party is pretty liberal by the standards here.

People mostly view it as a my side vs your side. They are ignorant of the details outside of a few headlines they agree with and vote based on party.

If it were illegal to say what party you were part of and it was no longer listed on a ballot, most of America wouldn't know who to vote for.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:08 PM
 
20,577 posts, read 19,237,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Ok. Unfortunately, that is probably going to confuse a lot of people. Most people aren’t going to think that the Religious Right is “leftist” since it wants a more powerful government that enforces evangelical Christian values.

If those values include victimless crimes then they are clearly taking a big da guberment position.
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I assume that you are a libertarian?
Yes I tend to be a libertarian. For the most part I tend to think I maintain a consistent position. For example with the Microsoft anti-trust case I heard a lot of people say da guberment should stay out of "the market". I tried to tell the typical conservative that if da guberment did that then they would have no copyright or patent protection. Their wealth is very dependent on that particular kid of property right enforced by da guberment. I do consider that kind of property to be much more a product of da guberment and therefore there has a higher level of scrutiny. in other words they should not be using their protection to create monopolies.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,906 posts, read 5,538,155 times
Reputation: 12963
I think the meaning of the word "populist" has become quite blurred.
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Old 06-14-2018, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
20,729 posts, read 9,344,609 times
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The divide has become rural vs urban. The democrats are the urban party, and the republicans are the rural party.
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Old 06-14-2018, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,284,595 times
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The terms liberal and conservative were never really very good nor accurate, but I think if we follow the rule of defining them as they are defined by common parlance, I think they are still useful.


In common parlance, liberals are really collectivists. They want powerful government, and for decisions to be made at the collective level. Conservatives are individualists. To the extent possible, we want decisions left in the hands of the individual.


These definitions explain a whole range of differences between Democrats and Republicans. Republicans want individuals to be able to keep and bear arms. Democrats want arms only in the hands of the collective (police/military). Liberals want more money transferred from individuals to the collective (taxes). Republicans prefer that money be left in the hands of the individual where possible. Liberals want the collective (government) tentacles in everything from entertainment (tax funded sports stadiums) to the baking of wedding cakes. Conservatives believe in privately funded sports stadiums, and individual choice when it comes to wedding cakes.


Again this is all generally speaking. YMMV.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:33 PM
 
6,835 posts, read 2,375,187 times
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We misuse so many sociopolitical words that they have essentially lost their true meanings.
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Old 06-14-2018, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,286 posts, read 9,172,660 times
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The words have been obsolete for a long time now.

The political stances and philosophies of Americans are far too complex to be simplified into two terms.

At this point they're nothing more than catch phrases.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:12 AM
 
20,577 posts, read 19,237,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Liberal has meant something which is timeless. Just because "conservatives" have spent billions trying to redefine it does not mean it has changed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

"Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support civil rights, democracy, secularism, gender and race equality, internationalism and the freedoms of speech, the press, religion and markets"
What passes for liberalism today uses group think and force probably more that conservatives. I think they also want to confiscate guns from civilians . The one who then possess the monopoly on guns cannot be equal now can they?

In addition to this, in the name of liberalism, they are creating protected classes, to make people more "equal". First its women , then it was black. Then we have the disabled. Now we even have a beliefs like Islam. Its at the point where a wart on one's nose makes one a victim and are thus awarded compensation by the state. Add the concept of micro aggression and inter-sectional and every interaction is now an interaction that needs regulation. Everyone is not unequal and not free.

That is the same kind of logic the conservatives would use when they would go on the warpath to make the world a safe place.



So indeed liberalism has changed because it used to apply to being born unequal in this world and being free to find your destiny. Now its redefined as needing magistrates to insure all things turn out to be equal.


Quote:
Also, by definition, Liberals learn and change:
“The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment.” ―*Bertrand Russell
A dead "liberal" that does not speak for the liberals today. I am quite easily defined as a classic liberal.


Quote:
The problem with "conservatism" is that it never meant anything fixed. The first use of the word I find in my reading is those in the "middle states" who supported the continuation of slavery in the South. These states were often non-slave states, but "conservatives" thought the status quo was best.....
It generally means that one should be slow to change because one does not know the consequences. For example when a "liberal" says sex change is a great idea, a conservative would suggest that surgery is novelty. It may have unintended consequences. That is to say that conservatives are usually more correct than liberals because they relying on proven methods. However an excess of conservationism then lead to stagnation.

I take the road of being conservative when I am ignorant of the consequences, and I proceed carefully in experimental territory with knowledge.


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Fast Forward and "conservatism" became a mish-mash that constantly contradicted itself. Goldwater was considered the modern Hero of the new conservatism.....but this is a guy who spoke out 100% against all the fundamentalist religious types getting involved in politics.
"Goldwater became a vocal opponent of the Christian right and its influence on the Republican Party on issues such as abortion, gay rights, and the role of religion in public life."
Well at the time conservatism was to keep the church out of the state. Of course what the liberals don't seem to realize is they have expanded the role of the state that it now interferes not only with religion but everything else. I think prayer should be allowed in school because I do not believe in state schools. People should go to the school of their choice. Now its winner take all tyranny of the majority, a problems the classical liberals warned about.

Quote:
So, I think we can conclude that Goldwater Conservatives never existed in our time!

After Barry, it somewhat warped into "my country, right or wrong" - in the sense of that they would support the Vietnam War through Nixon.....and then, it went into the toilet when Nixon resigned.

About this time the heavy influence of the religious right, financed by Texas billionaires (John Birch society, hunt brothers and many more) came into play. They created, through publications, etc - a more modern Frankenstein that hung it's hat on the "lack of change". This would mean a supposed "moral majority" which never existed....they were neither moral nor the majority, but rather racist and selfish (one and the same in many cases).....when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Bill, he turned the South Republican.....and they somehow also took the mantle of being "conservative".....

As all their issues fell by the wayside, they finally adapted "fiscal conservatism" as their main selling point. Of course, any study of history and current events shows nothing of the sort. They just cheered when borrowing 1.5 Trillion to give free money to corporations and the wealthiest among us. No talk of a balanced budget any more...

The problem is that they have no "way" to lose. There never was a way....except for power and money. We could say they believe in more fossil fuels and resource extraction, but that's not much of a definition!

Summary: Liberal has always meant something...and will always. You can get a "liberal" education and it meets the quotes above - that is, you will learn how to learn and adapt your mind as you gain experiences and knowledge.


Conservative never meant anything in a true political sense. There are bits and pieces that the Right (a better definition) has tried to grab onto, but for a bit of money or power they will drop them all instantly. Or, todays conservatives are "authoritarian" to the point of giving over much of their decision making to what they perceive as the "strong leader". This is a Putin/Trump/Duerte sort of thing.
Trump is a conservative? Bahahahahhahaha . oh yes look how religious right he is . Oh yes the tax cuts are "conservative". I can still say that we did not have income taxes longer than we have had them when classical liberals created this country. And gun grabbing is liberal? Its pure Nazi is what it is.



Quote:

Note - one could speak of a few "crazy lefties" who are not liberals. If they have closed minds they are, by definition, not liberals. So let's not get mixed up with political parties or tendencies as opposed to "open" or "closed" world views.
[/quote]

As I have proven liberalism does mean much either. I am a liberal , but not the regressive left which replaces priests with social justice warriors . They promise to help me up when I fall which they do slowly and poorly , but knock men down quickly when I try to stand.

In other words "liberalism" today is a ghastly abomination of state sponsored, corporately financed social oppression.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:40 AM
 
Location: USA
18,423 posts, read 9,052,370 times
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Interesting responses so far.

I’ll ask another question: is Trump “liberal” or “conservative?”

His family / marriage arrangements and lifetime in NYC would make him more “liberal.” But he’s a business tycoon who sells stuff that is made in China, while speaking about border walls and protecting fossil fuel interests. That’d make home more “conservative.”
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:45 AM
 
10,800 posts, read 3,554,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting responses so far.

I’ll ask another question: is Trump “liberal” or “conservative?”

His family / marriage arrangements and lifetime in NYC would make him more “liberal.” But he’s a business tycoon who sells stuff that is made in China, while speaking about border walls and protecting fossil fuel interests. That’d make home more “conservative.”
Most would say he has a very limited connection to the truth in his utterances.
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