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View Poll Results: Is a welfare state socialism?
Yes, welfare state is socialist 16 47.06%
No, socialism is different 18 52.94%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-30-2018, 04:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Is a welfare state that guarantees health care and housing as a right socialism?
Most things aren't absolutes, and you're interfering with your own ability to understand if you're forcing an issue into black-and-white labels.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:13 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,916,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Yes, I need a link or quotation for any of your imaginary statements.
Its well known that the Soviet Union labeled itself socialist. So I ask you; do you believe the Soviet propaganda meant to appeal to the masses? We know that America loved that the Soviet Union called itself socialist. But the Soviet Union had a very good reason for doing it as well. Just like North Korea calls itself democratic and people's republic. Do you actually believe this propaganda?

Regarding the comment about right wingers calling welfare socialism, I mistakenly took you for some other "libertarian" in here.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
Most things aren't absolutes, and you're interfering with your own ability to understand if you're forcing an issue into black-and-white labels.
Is that your way of saying that it is "a little socialist"?
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:15 PM
 
Location: annandale, va & slidell, la
9,267 posts, read 5,088,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Is a welfare state that guarantees health care and housing as a right socialism?
Oh, housing now! You people have really lost it! Be sure to use those talking points at the next election!
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by finalmove View Post
Oh, housing now! You people have really lost it! Be sure to use those talking points at the next election!
Even slaves took housing and food for granted. In fact, the slave owners of the South argued that if you own something, you treat it better than if you just rent something, like wage slaves who could be worked to near death and kicked out on the streets at no cost for the employer.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:20 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 3,217,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Its well known that the Soviet Union labeled itself socialist. So I ask you; do you believe the Soviet propaganda meant to appeal to the masses? We know that America loved that the Soviet Union called itself socialist. But the Soviet Union had a very good reason for doing it as well. Just like North Korea calls itself democratic and people's republic. Do you actually believe this propaganda?

Regarding the comment about right wingers calling welfare socialism, I mistakenly took you for some other "libertarian" in here.
The standard line of the Eastern Bloc, which is not totally unreasonable, was that socialism described their economy and communism described their politics. Since socialism is public ownership of the means of production, it is technically agnostic on what form the government takes. Hence the need for Bernie Sanders to call himself a democratic socialist, as opposed to an authoritarian socialist.

Like how the US is a capitalist democratic state, the USSR was a socialist communist state.

The origins of socialism preceded Marx however, and the USSR line is unsatisfying because socialism can exist without totalitarianism.

This is academic to someone who believes in individual liberty, for whom personal property rights are as important as free speech. From that perspective, socialism is just a waystation on the road to serfdom.

Normalizing socialism is still walking further down that road.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The standard line of the Eastern Bloc, which is not totally unreasonable, was that socialism described their economy and communism described their politics.

Do you, or do you not believe in their propaganda to appeal to the workers of the world? Do you actually believe that workers in the Soviet Union had any say in the matter? I can understand why people who actually lived in North Korea or the Soviet Union believe in the propaganda from the dictator, but people living free lives with access to information?
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
This is academic to someone who believes in individual liberty, for whom personal property rights are as important as free speech. From that perspective, socialism is just a waystation on the road to serfdom.

Normalizing socialism is still walking further down that road.
Feudalists were also strong believers in personal property rights. That's why its safe to say that so-called libertarians are really just neo-feudalists, longing for the days of the Middle Ages with one STRONG property owner, ruling with an iron fist and his own private army.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:28 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 3,217,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
Do you, or do you not believe in their propaganda to appeal to the workers of the world? Do you actually believe that workers in the Soviet Union had any say in the matter? I can understand why people who actually lived in North Korea or the Soviet Union believe in the propaganda from the dictator, but people living free lives with access to information?
I think the leaders of the USSR, knowing of the failures of the revolutions of 1848 and the successes of Leninism, genuinely believed that authoritarian socialism was workable and democratic socialism was not. I agree with them on that point. I think forced equality is an unnatural outcome that cannot arise in democracies.
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Old 06-30-2018, 04:31 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,916,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I think the leaders of the USSR, knowing of the failures of the revolutions of 1848 and the successes of Leninism, genuinely believed that authoritarian socialism was workable and democratic socialism was not. I agree with them on that point. I think forced equality is an unnatural outcome that cannot arise in democracies.
Thats irrelevant though. The question is whether the dictators had a vested interest in portraying itself as a worker's paradise where workers actually had a democratic say in their workplaces. To just grab power and call yourself socialist, democratic, fascist or whatever doesnt mean anything. Workers were simply slaves like in medieval times in the USSR. There was no socialism or worker control there.
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