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You mean some men should have to learn to control themselves. I’ve never raped or sexually harassed any woman, so I shouldn’t have to be held accountable for the men who do. Most men don’t engage in those behaviors.
You mean some men should have to learn to control themselves. I’ve never raped or sexually harassed any woman, so I shouldn’t have to be held accountable for the men who do. Most men don’t engage in those behaviors.
So what's the problem? Why such a strong reaction? I would say that while most men haven't raped, that many men have had coercive sex and many men have harassed women. There's no need to minimize something just because YOU haven't personally engaged in the behavior.
Many women have been abused and while there are men who are repeat offenders, the actual numbers seem to be large as well. I'm just tired of men acting like there are 5 guys in the U.S. are responsible for all this bad behavior...no...uh uh. The men doing this are bad...not necessarily evil. If we absolutely demonize these men then we make it unthinkable that men we know who may even be our friends are the same men doing this stuff. Yeah, everyday men coerce and harass - and they need to be held responsible. Just because it is common and bordering on typical doesn't make it any less wrong.
About a quarter of Southerners owned slaves - that made it typical - and still very wrong. Now we know that coercing and harassing women is wrong, too.
You mean some men should have to learn to control themselves. I’ve never raped or sexually harassed any woman, so I shouldn’t have to be held accountable for the men who do. Most men don’t engage in those behaviors.
Most people who engage in "those behaviors" do not even realize they are doing it or downplay it and tell people to lighten up.
So what's the problem? Why such a strong reaction? I would say that while most men haven't raped, that many men have had coercive sex and many men have harassed women. There's no need to minimize something just because YOU haven't personally engaged in the behavior.
Many women have been abused and while there are men who are repeat offenders, the actual numbers seem to be large as well. I'm just tired of men acting like there are 5 guys in the U.S. are responsible for all this bad behavior...no...uh uh. The men doing this are bad...not necessarily evil. If we absolutely demonize these men then we make it unthinkable that men we know who may even be our friends are the same men doing this stuff. Yeah, everyday men coerce and harass - and they need to be held responsible. Just because it is common and bordering on typical doesn't make it any less wrong.
About a quarter of Southerners owned slaves - that made it typical - and still very wrong. Now we know that coercing and harassing women is wrong, too.
My problem is that the person said “men should learn to control themselves”. I understand that some men do those things, and I feel bad that a lot of women have had to have those experiences, but no need to say “men” when only SOME are doing those things.
We’re not in disagreement that harassing women is wrong, of course it is. But I don’t do it nor do I associate with guys who do, so I just don’t want to be lumped in with the guys who do.
My problem is that the person said “men should learn to control themselves”. I understand that some men do those things, and I feel bad that a lot of women have had to have those experiences, but no need to say “men” when only SOME are doing those things.
We’re not in disagreement that harassing women is wrong, of course it is. But I don’t do it nor do I associate with guys who do, so I just don’t want to be lumped in with the guys who do.
He said that AFTER telling you what group he was referring to.
He said that AFTER telling you what group he was referring to.
From what I read, he said the guys who get angry when you suggest that MEN change their behavior. It doesn’t really make a difference. My problem is the use of “men”. If it’s okay to generalize men based on what some men do then you can do the same for any other group.
This made me think of a MeToo incident at a Meetup that was directed by a strange woman at a bar, out of earshot, but...was said to a woman sitting next to him (the organizer) ABOUT said woman
"I can’t wait for that woman over there in the short skirt to climb over that bench"
What made it really baffling that it was a retired military, senior officer that said this and the organizer figured remark to be a remark of a 15 year old.
She immediately kicked him out of the group, no questions asked....and the comment wasn't about HER skirt, but some strange woman's skirt.
A couple of guys chimed in however, questioning the validity of this claim. They chimed in on how it's also the "context" in which the comment was said, voice tone, etc.
One guy said, "You were just looking for a reason to get pissed". As if she had an axe to grind against men.
Another response from said organizer:
And of course, some of the men don’t understand why the comment was offensive. Guess you had to be the one it was directed at - and be a woman - and be VERY tired of hearing that kind of crap from old men who think just because they’ve passed a certain age, they don’t need to be respectful and decent. I’ve had it happen often enough that I no longer wait for complaints to build up - did that with one member not too long ago and it snowballed.
A former CFO of a company would get reports from HR as to false complaints about men making remarks...something about a man asking about a woman's "kid" and she got offended, reported him to HR referring to her child...no joke...as a GOAT. lol
I too have dealt with this for decades. As CFO with HR reporting to me, I have heard all the stories, all the complaints, and investigated hundreds of cases.
The thing that absolutely ticked me off about the process is that if accused, and exonerated, the accused is penalized no matter what. False accusations are damaging to people and their lives.
Another comment, defending some, mild, off-hand comment made in a bar by said man...he also mentions that he's had similar comments said to him in the bar, and he didn't pat an eye, so he could flimsly put himself in the #MeToo pool.
This... Based on the situation described, my best guess at what the old man meant was "I'll be interested to see how that woman over there navigates this seating arrangement in such impractical attire." Which is an odd conversation starter, but mostly harmless. (Recall that Margarita herself remarked on the shortness of this lady's dress).
And this....
If it's sexual harassment when an older woman makes an awkward embarrassing unwelcome pass or comment towards me in a tavern, then apparently I've been sexually harassed A LOT.
On the other hand, some in the media have opined that the #MeToo hashtag should be reserved for sex crimes and sexual abuse, and that applying it to — say — an offhand comment in a bar is actually damaging to the movement.
So he was saying an "off-hand" comment doesn't fall into the category of #MeToo
The fact that he went on to ARGUE the point made a woman suggest that he'd not be the kind of Organizer to have running an event because women would not be able to come to him in case a #metoo situation occurred.
That's where the end game comes into play because whenever a hot button topic like this starts, and you question or disagree...then the #MeToo movement will shift pointed fingers to question the character of the person arguing against #MeToo. They may figure that the person arguing against it , has also at one time sexually harassed a woman or 2.
"Oh, you disagree with us? You're just as bad as THOSE men, also!" Or "You're not one of THEM, are ya?"
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