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Old 07-22-2018, 07:50 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,519 posts, read 28,613,393 times
Reputation: 25097

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
As for Montenegro, why didn't Trump let his feelings known when he agreed to them becoming part of NATO last year. Whilst the US has consitently pushed for the expansion of NATO since the end of the Cold War.

I disagree with Trump on this. In the unlikely event that any NATO country is attacked by Russia, the U.S. needs to come to their defense.

However, the addition of Turkey makes me weary. Islamic countries in the Middle East should not be allowed to join NATO. They are too unstable and undemocratic.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:41 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
15,318 posts, read 17,208,795 times
Reputation: 6959
NATO members agreed to commit to spending 2% of their GDP on defense in 2006 and failed to meet that guideline. I hope they do follow through on their commitments in 2024, but I wouldn't be shocked if there are more excuses. NATO itself has conceded that it is overly reliant on the US.

Although Trump is mixing up the NATO budget with general defense spending of each member country, he's right to point out that not everyone is meeting their obligation. And he's not the first as the Obama and Bush administrations have called out NATO allies for not meeting the 2% target: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/obam...n-defense.html
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Old 07-30-2018, 02:46 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,117 posts, read 13,407,971 times
Reputation: 19418
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemycomputer90 View Post
NATO members agreed to commit to spending 2% of their GDP on defense in 2006 and failed to meet that guideline. I hope they do follow through on their commitments in 2024, but I wouldn't be shocked if there are more excuses. NATO itself has conceded that it is overly reliant on the US.

Although Trump is mixing up the NATO budget with general defense spending of each member country, he's right to point out that not everyone is meeting their obligation. And he's not the first as the Obama and Bush administrations have called out NATO allies for not meeting the 2% target: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/obam...n-defense.html
It's more complicated than that, indeed European nations already spend three or four times what Russia does on defence and more than China.

Try reading the US Brookings Institution analysis which offers a far better insight than Trump.

As Trump twists NATO's arm, let's run the math on defense spending - Brookings Instition

Trump's meaningless NATO spending debate - Brookings Institution
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,343,162 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
The Truth instead of Trump's nonsense.

As well as the US $87 Billion already being spent (almost three times the total US spending on NATO), there are plans for much more future spending and many countries are looking to meet guidelines and increase spending.
You're bragging about how much money you're out as the result of an armed robbery?

Well, whatever floats your boat.

*shrug*
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:53 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,365,858 times
Reputation: 55562
Yes and they increased spending on Syrian immigrant welfare
That is all good but they did so by not paying their ally copay
Flourishing gestures of hospitality with a borrowed hat
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Old 07-30-2018, 06:10 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
15,318 posts, read 17,208,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
It's more complicated than that, indeed European nations already spend three or four times what Russia does on defence and more than China.

Try reading the US Brookings Institution analysis which offers a far better insight than Trump.

As Trump twists NATO's arm, let's run the math on defense spending - Brookings Instition

Trump's meaningless NATO spending debate - Brookings Institution
Doesn't change a thing that I said. Brookings main argument is that Germany, Spain and Italy had fascist dictatorships? So that means they shouldn't meet their obligation as a member of NATO? Last time I checked Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini weren't in power anymore. The articles you linked linked to this article which outlines the frustrations previous administrations have had with NATO allies failing to adequately fund defense:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/a-...s-nothing-new/
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Old 07-30-2018, 06:13 PM
 
52,433 posts, read 26,590,117 times
Reputation: 21097
Don't wanna pay? Fine. Trump's gonna pull the US troops out of Germany, where they don't pay and put them in Poland, where they do.



Problem solved.



Of course the status quo will scream like stuck pigs. Good.
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Old 07-31-2018, 03:00 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
27,117 posts, read 13,407,971 times
Reputation: 19418
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
Don't wanna pay? Fine. Trump's gonna pull the US troops out of Germany, where they don't pay and put them in Poland, where they do.

Problem solved.

Of course the status quo will scream like stuck pigs. Good.
The German Foreign Minister Heiko Mass has already stated that Europe needs to build it's own defence and security apparatus, and can no longer rely on NATO after Trump undermind Article 5. Indeed talk of a Post-Atlantic Europe seems to be increasing at a time when Europe is substantially increasing it's ability to operate together and independently of NATO.

Germany's Maas unveils vision for post-Atlantic Europe – EURACTIV

Germany's Foreign Minister Calls for 'A Real European Security and Defense Union' - Atlantic Council

The EU is looking at a pact whereby they an never be bullied by the US and can even take the US to task over any wrong doing according to the German Foreign Minister.

US Forces aen't popular with Germans, and a recent poll suggested that the majority now wanted these bases closed.

US Forces in Germany and Italy account for 2/3rds of US Forces in Europe, and around 47,000 of the 65,000 US Personnel.

Germans want Donald Trump to pull US troops out of Germany, poll finds - The Independent

Italy: home of pizza, pasta, wine and the US military - The Guardian

It is also the US that has voiced concerns about the status quo and the setting up of PESCO, a Permament European Military Structure and although a move to a European Defence would be more costly it would give Europe greater independence from the US. The trith being a more effective use of European forces could be effective against Russia, a country that spends $70 Billion on Defence, compared to the $250 Billion spent by Europeans, a figure which is greater than China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemycomputer90 View Post
Doesn't change a thing that I said. Brookings main argument is that Germany, Spain and Italy had fascist dictatorships? So that means they shouldn't meet their obligation as a member of NATO? Last time I checked Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini weren't in power anymore. The articles you linked linked to this article which outlines the frustrations previous administrations have had with NATO allies failing to adequately fund defense:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/08/a-...s-nothing-new/
The US has always discouraged the Europeans from setting up their own defence pact, and some countries were discouraged from having too larger militaries.

U.S. Revives Concerns About European Defense Plans, Rattling NATO Allies - New York Times

EU's new defense union must not undermine NATO, warns Stoltenberg - DW

Last edited by Brave New World; 07-31-2018 at 03:33 AM..
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