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Venezuela certainly was not democratic.
And it was more a kleptocracy than socialist.
Come back when Sweden and Germany fail.
Venezuela certainly was and is democratic. I will post on this in the near future; I'm waiting for a book that I need to re-read before posting.
Chavez lost a referendum in 2007 seeking to enhance his powers as president. He abided by the results. However, he retooled his propaganda, resubmitted the measure, and won. Chávez Turns Bitter Over His Defeat in Referendum
Everything Chavez did was via election. And yes, Venezuela was socialist, to the point of having state-run grocery store chains. What is your evidence that it was "more kleptocracy than socialist?"
'Social democracy' is not also known as 'democratic socialism.' They are two different things. Democratic socialism is socialism (surprise). Social democracy is not socialism, as the Danish PM said.
Venezuela is democratic socialism. Sweden and Denmark are social democracy.
"Sweden and Denmark are social democracy"
Is there any other kind?
Pretty much every democracy has more or less Capitalist-Free Market economy alongside a social welfare state. This is true in Taiwan, Sweden, Italy, the USA, Denmark, Israel, Germany, etc, etc.
Obviously, some welfare systems are more generous than others, but they all have them.
I guess I do not understand this bizarre obsession with Socialism on C-D. Something has been around for more than a century. Everybody has an opinion on it yet nobody can even define it.
Social democracy is not socialism, as the Danish PM said.
I am familiar what the PM said, and already tried to explain it. He was referring to their economy, which is a free market system (not state owned socialist, like in Venezuela) as is typical in the Nordic system.
Pretty much every democracy has more or less Capitalist-Free Market economy alongside a social welfare state. This is true in Taiwan, Sweden, Italy, the USA, Denmark, Israel, Germany, etc, etc.
Obviously, some welfare systems are more generous than others, but they all have them.
I guess I do not understand this bizarre obsession with Socialism on C-D. Something has been around for more than a century. Everybody has an opinion on it yet nobody can even define it.
You're right of course, but 'social democracy' in common parlance has come to refer to the scandi style government. There are some unique characteristics of their approach, especially 'universalism' of their welfare programs. That is, the welfare programs are available to all, not just the poor, disadvantaged, or those unable to work. If you want it, you get it. The scandi countries have generally been cutting back on benefits in recent years. Iceland never had the degree of welfare as the others to begin with.
I am familiar what the PM said, and already tried to explain it. He was referring to their economy, which is a free market system (not state owned socialist, like in Venezuela) as is typical in the Nordic system.
Why then did you say that Denmark was socialist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
while Sweden and Denmark represent Democratic Socialism
Economy and government are inextricably linked in socialism. That's what socialism is: government ownership of the means of production.
And why did you sanctimoniously insult another poster saying 'educate yourself' while evidently being confused yourself?
You're right of course, but 'social democracy' in common parlance has come to refer to the scandi style government. There are some unique characteristics of their approach, especially 'universalism' of their welfare programs. That is, the welfare programs are available to all, not just the poor, disadvantaged, or those unable to work. If you want it, you get it. The scandi countries have generally been cutting back on benefits in recent years. Iceland never had the degree of welfare as the others to begin with.
Yes, but ....
I am not poor. Yet I have access to Unemployment Insurance, State Universities, Social Security, and many other areas of the American social welfare state. So do you.
The Scandinavian system is a result of their communal culture. It is more generous than even other Western European welfare states- something ignored completely around here.
The American system is less generous. This results from a culture that reflects rugged individualism.
Therein lies the difference: I doubt Denmark would want to pare down to our level anymore than we would want to elevate to theirs. Both work fine for their respective nations.
Scandinavia and the USA have more in common than not. Both are nice places to live and have their fair share of issues.
You're right of course, but 'social democracy' in common parlance has come to refer to the scandi style government. There are some unique characteristics of their approach, especially 'universalism' of their welfare programs. That is, the welfare programs are available to all, not just the poor, disadvantaged, or those unable to work. If you want it, you get it. The scandi countries have generally been cutting back on benefits in recent years. Iceland never had the degree of welfare as the others to begin with.
They seem to be in perpetual state of adjusting the levels of benefits, and lately the level has been reduced. Maybe adjustments and experimentation is easier in smaller countries. Finland experimented with basic income, and then scrapped it a year after.
As a fact to point out that it's low oil prices not socialism that caused the decline.
That doesn't mean this is now a discussion about fixed oil prices.
.
Oh, so it's ok for you to bring up oil prices "as a fact" to make your point, but when someone responds to it they are getting off topic. Gotcha.
BTW, it's not a fact. It's a fallacy. It's not low oil prices behind Venezuela's troubles. If that were true then all oil-producing nations would be having similar problems. They are not, so there must be something different between them and Venezuela. It's socialism. Venezuela was counting on high oil prices to fund their socialist policies and when the revenues aren't there and they have to scale back (as all oil producers have) the result is social catastrophe.
Therein lies the difference: I doubt Denmark would want to pare down to our level anymore than we would want to elevate to theirs. Both work fine for their respective nations.
Correct. Danes insisted on such system, and voted accordingly. We in US do not seem to want it, and have not voted accordingly. Maybe the 2-party system makes it impossible.
Quote:
Scandinavia and the USA have more in common than not. Both are nice places to live and have their fair share of issues.
US is a place where young people have a better chance to make it big, while Nordics are more likely to live their lives in middle class, but without worrying about retirement, sickness etc.
Oh, so it's ok for you to bring up oil prices "as a fact" to make your point, but when someone responds to it they are getting off topic. Gotcha.
BTW, it's not a fact. It's a fallacy. It's not low oil prices behind Venezuela's troubles. If that were true then all oil-producing nations would be having similar problems. They are not, so there must be something different between them and Venezuela. It's socialism. Venezuela was counting on high oil prices to fund their socialist policies and when the revenues aren't there and they have to scale back (as all oil producers have) the result is social catastrophe.
Venezuelans really screwed it up with their policies. Saudi Arabia depends on oil, and their economy is practically communist, but they are able to absorb the ups and downs because they have so much of it.
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