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Old 08-01-2018, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,296,394 times
Reputation: 14459

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
If the rightful owner is practicing NA is it still consider theft?
I don't know what this means.
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:55 PM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
If the rightful owner is practicing NA is it still consider theft?
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I don't know what this means.
non-aggression
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Old 08-01-2018, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,296,394 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
non-aggression
If the owner is practicing non-aggression is it still theft?

Um, yes?

Not sure where you're going here.
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:04 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,467 posts, read 18,602,191 times
Reputation: 22363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
The States had never surrendered their sovereignty it was neither stated or implied by the u.s. Constitution, which was the founders intent. The founders intent, 'self-governed states'. The nature of the union was to reserve powers to the States. Those who are called traitors fought to have the u.s. Constitution applied as written.
It's really a shame that the slavery issue was so strongly intertwined with the secession and Civil War. If slavery had been non-existent and the southern states had used their other points to justify breaking away, I really wonder if the federals would have come up with a way to force the Union or even tried. Constitutionally, there is definitely an argument that states are (supposed to be) fairly autonomous in a governmental respect. Yes, the Constitution binds them much more than the earlier Articles of Confederation did, but where was (or is) the line on state self-governance?

I would love to see an "alternate reality" play out that scenario. Would there today be two separate (or even more) nations?

In many historical documents, the southern politicians (at least at first) thought they were doing exactly what they had the right to do as granted by the constitution (or at least in as much as the document left the question "open"). But as I said, the slavery issue overshadowed everything else. I in no way condone slavery, but in a way, I think the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. What we ended up with after the Civil war is an ever-strengthening federal government and ever weakening state governments.

Last edited by ChrisC; 08-01-2018 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:13 PM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
If the owner is practicing non-aggression is it still theft?

Um, yes?

Not sure where you're going here.
The care meter of the owner of the flag pole.

Side stepping the fact that no one knows who or when someone put the rebel flag up the pole. The veteran taking it down and throwing it away would only be considered a theft and destruction if ...

1. the owner of the pole says they put it there.
2. the veteran did so with out permission of the owner.

The one who put the rebel flag on the flag pole (unknown assailant) did so with out permission. The rebel flag was their property and they voluntarily relinquished said property; performing an act of trespass as they did so.

Where's the theft/crime that was to have been committed based on non-aggression principle?
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:42 PM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,558,709 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
It's really a shame that the slavery issue was so strongly intertwined with the secession and Civil War. If slavery had been non-existent and the southern states had used their other points to justify breaking away, I really wonder if the federals would have come up with a way to force the Union or even tried. Constitutionally, there is definitely an argument that states are (supposed to be) fairly autonomous in a governmental respect. Yes, the Constitution binds them much more than the earlier Articles of Confederation did, but where was (or is) the line on state self-governance?

I would love to see an "alternate reality" play out that scenario. Would there today be two separate (or even more) nations?

In many historical documents, the southern politicians (at least at first) thought they were doing exactly what they had the right to do as granted by the constitution (or at least in as much as the document left the question "open"). But as I said, the slavery issue overshadowed everything else. I in no way condone slavery, but in a way, I think the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. What we ended up with after the Civil war is an ever-strengthening federal government and ever weakening state governments.
It is a shame that Abraham Lincoln (not on his own) figured out how to muddy the waters and threw a monkey wrench into the works with slavery.

The enumeration of the union was set per (10th Amendment) the u.s. Constitution States rights reserved. The Confederate States found their issues were not being address per legislation of the executive branch. Texas was having an Indian aka Native American issue with raids, sought for military protection and was ignored. There were several issues they saw that pointed towards an oppressive government such as the one they had just fought to get out from under with the Brits.

I don't think there would have been two governments; two nations. I believe there would have been a decentralized union. The States would have had their own militia (1st Amendment) their own commerce accept where it applied in the Constitution, imports and exports --- self-government comes with self-finance. Each State flourishing under their own merit, that sort of thing, and the federal government would have teeth, but no bite.

But alas, we will never know.
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Old 08-01-2018, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,296,394 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
The care meter of the owner of the flag pole.

Side stepping the fact that no one knows who or when someone put the rebel flag up the pole. The veteran taking it down and throwing it away would only be considered a theft and destruction if ...

1. the owner of the pole says they put it there.
2. the veteran did so with out permission of the owner.

The one who put the rebel flag on the flag pole (unknown assailant) did so with out permission. The rebel flag was their property and they voluntarily relinquished said property; performing an act of trespass as they did so.

Where's the theft/crime that was to have been committed based on non-aggression principle?
Let's start over from the beginning.

Resmer reads an article in the paper inquiring about why a rebel flag is flying at a certain location on a flagpole.

Now check this from the original article that Resmer read that morning:

Quote:
Max Spann, president and chief executive officer of Max Spann Real Estate & Auction Co. – the firm that auctioned off the property – did not return a call. A search on a website, maintained by the Passaic County Clerk's Office, found no deed recorded for the property since the auction.

Mayor Christopher Vergano did not return a call.
https://www.northjersey.com/story/ne...-nj/866096002/

The rightful owner of the property, the flagpole, and the flag (which is not necessarily the same person as the first two) is unknown.

Assuming Resmer is not mentally ill or cognitively impaired his intent was to trespass and then steal the flag even though at the time he did it he had no idea who the owners were.

We know this because that's what the original article said plus if we are assuming Resmer is not impaired he knows that the flag and flagpole do not occur in nature outside the labor of man.

We can reasonably conclude that Resmer is not impaired because he told the paper his intent later on...which was disgust at the sight of the flag.

Does this clear it up?

The crime is the intent and Resmer's knowledge that he is not the owner of the pole, flag, or property. It doesn't matter that the owner was...and still is...unknown.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:54 PM
 
56,989 posts, read 35,105,807 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The OP ain't punching anyone in the mouth over a flag or anything else for that matter, he's over here thinking about crying because a real man stepped up and did what he only dreamed he could.
Dude, you must’ve bumped your head when one of the bricks under your single wide collapsed.

You Neo-Confederates are awfully bent outta shape about this.
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Old 08-01-2018, 08:06 PM
 
Location: In your head, rent free
14,888 posts, read 10,001,717 times
Reputation: 7692
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Dude, you must’ve bumped your head when one of the bricks under your single wide collapsed.

You Neo-Confederates are awfully bent outta shape about this.
You must have forgotten to wipe that last tear out of your eye when you read this hurtful story which walked all up in your feelings, you're having trouble reading tonight.
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Old 08-01-2018, 09:44 PM
 
18,555 posts, read 7,322,222 times
Reputation: 11360
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebeldor View Post
My neighbor's Mini Cooper has a Union Jack on the roof, and we fought TWO wars against the British.

Maybe I should blow up his car...
Ha ha. And that second war was the only one in which this country's government can use the justification of self-defense.
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