Churches cost this country 71-83 billion a year (lobbyists, Georgia, Tennessee)
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Imagine how many of the nations financial problems would be solved by taxing churches.
Non-profit money is not a gift any more than you are gifting money to anyone who isn't taxed at a higher rate. The logic is nonsensical and isn't even consistent within the borders of the article itself, let alone when you would try to test it in the real world.
Churches are an essential part of civil life. However, there are hundreds of non-profits that are not. Let's tally the "lost" money from those if such "gifts" are what the OP is worried about.
And let's be real: in this day and age, such agitation from the Washington Post (and thus its owner) wreaks of neo-Communist style anti-religious agitation. It should be widely named and condemned.
It’s much higher than that if you account for the social costs of religion: willful ignorance, low science education standards, irrational fears, the encouragement of low IQ people to have more children, etc.
LOL..."love" (/sarc) your eugenics comment.
Apart from any dubious accuracy in its stated reasoning, are you willing to extrapolate the logic? Given your "high IQ", I'm sure that it immediately occurred to you.
Non-profit money is not a gift any more than you are gifting money to anyone who isn't taxed at a higher rate. The logic is nonsensical and isn't even consistent within the borders of the article itself, let alone when you would try to test it in the real world.
Churches are an essential part of civil life. However, there are hundreds of non-profits that are not. Let's tally the "lost" money from those if such "gifts" are what the OP is worried about.
And let's be real: in this day and age, such agitation from the Washington Post (and thus its owner) wreaks of neo-Communist style anti-religious agitation. It should be widely named and condemned.
Churches are an essential part of civil life?
Maybe back during the good ole days of the Inquisitions or in Saudi Arabia. But I hate to tell you, western society is becoming more and more secular, and churches are being relegated to the trash bin of the other dead gods, such as Zeus, Thor or Horus.
Maybe back during the good ole days of the Inquisitions or in Saudi Arabia. But I hate to tell you, western society is becoming more and more secular, and churches are being relegated to the trash bin of the other dead gods, such as Zeus, Thor or Horus.
^^ Is this an example of the high IQ people that you are supposedly going to preference, Freak80?
Inquisitions and Saudi Arabia??
You have no idea what you are talking about, historically nor otherwise.
Religion is an essential component of all civil life, as evidenced by the increasing lack of civility and community in the regions where it lacks.
Christianity has always been integral to the most civilized periods and regions of this nation, and it still is. To think otherwise is to either be a degenerate or to simply not know this country, first hand. The only exceptions are where exceptionally civilized tribes live (who are arguably inherently good), which isn't in many places.
^^ Is this an example of the high IQ people that you are supposedly going to preference, Freak80?
Inquisitions and Saudi Arabia??
You have no idea what you are talking about, historically nor otherwise.
Actually, I really do. History was my dual major with political science, and comparative religions my minor. But don't let that dissuade you from your perspective.
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Religion is an essential component of all civil life, as evidenced by the increasing lack of civility and community in the regions where it lacks.
The most secular (non-religious) countries are also the most advanced and crime free. All studies show the less religion in societies, the more civility.
Christianity has always been integral to the most civilized periods and regions of this nation, and it still is. To think otherwise is to either be a degenerate or to simply not know this country, first hand. The only exceptions are where exceptionally civilized tribes live (who are arguably inherently good), which isn't in many places.
You may wish that to be so, but the reality shows otherwise. The bible belt has a higher level of drug use, unwed pregnancies, more teen age pregnancies, higher crime levels, more racism, more adultery and the highest use of porn sites in the USA. Which one of those do you see as moral?
No way I'm going to read all the previous posts, but in case it hasn't been brought up, just what is there to tax? the Real estate? The Feds don't have a property tax, and most towns and cities like having churches around, and if the property the church owns isn't being used, then they pay taxes on it. All paid church employees pay payroll taxes like everybody else. All Pastors, ministers, and the like pay payroll and income taxes on their incomes.
So, there is not much to tax that isn't already taxed, despite all the whining by assorted angry deviants and the like. You're just being lied to about what is 'tax exempt' and what isn't., is all.
No way I'm going to read all the previous posts, but in case it hasn't been brought up, just what is there to tax? the Real estate? The Feds don't have a property tax, and most towns and cities like having churches around, and if the property the church owns isn't being used, then they pay taxes on it. All paid church employees pay payroll taxes like everybody else. All Pastors, ministers, and the like pay payroll and income taxes on their incomes.
The idea that most towns like churches around is shifting. Ask Clearwater, Florida what they think of all the tax exempt Church of Scientology property in prime downtown territory. It has held the city back, as that downtown is a dead zone commercially; no one wants to open a business there as the area is toxic.
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So, there is not much to tax that isn't already taxed, despite all the whining by assorted angry deviants and the like. You're just being lied to about what is 'tax exempt' and what isn't., is all.
Churches want municipal services like fire and police protection. Why should they not pay for it?
^^ Is this an example of the high IQ people that you are supposedly going to preference, Freak80?
Inquisitions and Saudi Arabia??
You have no idea what you are talking about, historically nor otherwise.
Religion is an essential component of all civil life, as evidenced by the increasing lack of civility and community in the regions where it lacks.
Christianity has always been integral to the most civilized periods and regions of this nation, and it still is. To think otherwise is to either be a degenerate or to simply not know this country, first hand. The only exceptions are where exceptionally civilized tribes live (who are arguably inherently good), which isn't in many places.
Conservative atheist F.A. Hayek agrees with you, as did Hegel, and as do many others who are familiar with history, especially western history. The so-called 'atrocities' some try to use as some sort of false moral equivalency argument will never ever bring up what the alternatives were; apparently they are ignorant, or they know their wonderful pagans were far more violent and murderous, and don't want to discuss that part of the history. Even the witch burning were just the locals following their local pre-Christian peasant traditions in times of hysteria, not much influenced by the Church in any way. 'The Inquisition' weren't much of a big deal, either, all three of them combined had a 'death toll' of maybe 5,000 at most, and that was after re-taking the area from Muslim invaders, and many of the 'local's couldn't be trusted.
I do not know Joseph Smith nor do I know Mormons. I do not know Mohammad nor do I know Muslims of Islamic faith. What I mean by that is, I do not know what is in the heart and/or their spirit and I haven't personal relationship with them in that manner. I can not judge that that I do not know.
"we know them by their fruit"
I can judge a person's actions but only in the fashion of, is this an action I would condone and/or take part in?
I did not share because my share needed validation, but only for others to reach an understanding.
______
A post of yours just above this one, you brought up Churches being that of a building.
A building is just a building. What makes it a Church are the people inside of it.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
I suggest you get out more...
If you haven't spoken to at least a few people who believe what they do contrary to what you believe and who claim what they believe "cannot be denied" contrary to what you think can easily be denied, then perhaps you cannot understand what I am explaining here. My point or question is how you (or anyone) reconciles these strongly held beliefs that are so different from one another and different from our own experience.
For me, when someone tells me their personal experience with God "cannot be denied," be they you, Mormon, Jew, Muslim, etc., any claim that can't be verified by way of empirical evidence is highly suspect, questionable, easy to deny.
Just like someone who believes a house is haunted. They may believe what they do because of personal experience, say with that ghost or lost loved one who made contact with them in that house. A fact they claim "cannot be denied," but really? I think not.
The house, like you say about the church building, is just a house, and a church building just a church. I don't think I suggested otherwise other than to point out that a church building is also something of a symbol, a "beacon" of sorts, that is meant to invite people to enter that church, become members of that church.
What people go on to believe in their own house or in their church is a personal matter, no doubt, and what they believe is no doubt what they BELIEVE, no doubt, but "cannot be denied?" Not so fast...
You can deny it all you want to as you always have, but my experience is but that of my own, in which I came to an understanding that which was told to me, was true. However, I can not speak for any other faithful denominations as to what they may or may not hold true to themselves, because I am not them.
I can not cast judgment on something or someone I do not know as I am powerless to do so. Others take that power unto themselves and cast judgment onto people and they believe they are within their right to do so.
So how do I reconcile these strongly held beliefs that are so different from one another? It is not for me to reconcile them, it is but for God to do, not me.
Churches:
There are seven churches (beyond the scope of my knowledge) mentioned in the book of Revelations. They are not made of brick and mortar, but of people. People make the Church and a building is just a building.
To levy taxes on a building, that the people (who pay their property taxes) have paid already, is a money grab attempt by the State.
Jefferson’s letter to John Jay in 1789 (August 27th):
"The embarrassments of the government, for want of money, are extreme."
btw: just so you know, when God first spoke to me, I explained it away ... So yes, I do know how that works.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
I should have added this one to the other post as where I left of was, what makes a Church a Church are the people, not the building ...
Thomas Jefferson understood Christ's teachings. He was not a Christian, but only in the way in which Christ gave to him a philosophical way of understanding.
The Church is a sovereign entity and should remain sovereign, as should people but the government doesn't see it that way, nor do you.
The government can strip away from me of all my worldly goods. They can have my house, all of my property, my money and make it difficult to live in this life. They can even take my life. (those are the examples of the absolutes in government power)
But the one thing the government has no power over (can't touch this) is my relationship with my Father.
They can however, after I'm dead and gone, collect money from my children. Even after a person is dead and gone, there is government power over the lives they lived and those they leave behind. (and people don't see this as ownership)
For the purpose of argument the people inside the building that make up the Church, without tax exempt status are paying through the building being the mediator an additional tax for a Constitutional right, that is now being re termed a privileged.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." -- Thomas Jefferson
I think Jefferson might have also seriously questioned that which you claim "cannot be denied," by way of "the homage of reason."
Much you otherwise explain, about what is a house, a church and what government can do need not be explained to me. I understand those differences plenty well enough, thank you.
I also think I understand plenty much else in a "philosophical" manner that you seem only able to give credit as gift from Christ. What you believe can't be taken from you is also as I believe what can't be taken from me when it comes to what we believe in these respects. Of course.
So again, where does that leave us? I don't think it leaves us all being Christians or agreeing that what you believe "can't be denied" by you personally is something that actually can't be denied by way of objective empirical evidence to the contrary, "the homage of reason." Fair?
You are right, Thomas Jefferson did question:
"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other ..." Thomas Jefferson
So where does that leave us? With our belief in freedoms.
It is through the letter written by Thomas Jefferson that we have the separation of church and state. As it is not written in the u.s. Constitution, but established through the Supreme Courts decision, who used the letter in order to come to their conclusions.
Tax exemption is also as you say, an unofficial tax, enacted in 1894, where as the financial door swings both ways. It keeps the government out of Church finance but, it also keeps the Church out of government business. (see Johnson's Amendment)
In the early 500s AD (and before) the Church was the government. They collected taxes, they wage the wars and they made the laws that the people where to abide by ... The Church (not a building) was very powerful and of course we know that when America was founded, one thing the founders wanted to make sure happened, to take the power out of the corrupted Church.
So in bridging the gap in finances it could open the door that leads to other things, as well. The only ones to be hurt by this, is the poor man and the poor man's church (one could maintain, one is exclusive of the other) that could get swept away by the tides of the rich man's power struggle.
No way I'm going to read all the previous posts, but in case it hasn't been brought up, just what is there to tax? the Real estate? The Feds don't have a property tax, and most towns and cities like having churches around, and if the property the church owns isn't being used, then they pay taxes on it. All paid church employees pay payroll taxes like everybody else. All Pastors, ministers, and the like pay payroll and income taxes on their incomes.
So, there is not much to tax that isn't already taxed, despite all the whining by assorted angry deviants and the like. You're just being lied to about what is 'tax exempt' and what isn't., is all.
Too true. Churches, just like the Girl Scouts and other non-profits, do not pay sales tax, but that isn't federal either. As a member of the so-called "Christian left", I would have no problem with churches being assessed a payment of some sort in lieu of taxes for police and fire protection.
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