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As has been pointed out I do not know how many times here and in the past as far as income taxes go, there is nothing to tax. There are NO profits. Squeal about this all you want, there are NO profits. In no case do we tax simple receipts. One could enact a property tax but I explained why we do not.
First of all I don't why you get the impression I would want to tax churches or any non profit.
It's valid point they have no income assuming they are spending it BUT if for example they were going to be taxed as business and gave away free meals. That's a donation and presumably donations would no longer be tax free.... right? Any taxes they would need to pay would be dependent on how it was restructured.
If you try applying it to just religious organizations you are going to have a big problem with Constitution and equal application of the law.
Yes, and even though I have sat on the board of local, regional and national charities, I see nothing wrong with any charity or church paying for services they require from a municipality. However, I would not be opposed to an equal value argument that such a church or non-profit may make.
Let's take some examples.
Church A spends its funds on promoting its religion locally, nationally and in foreign countries, as well as maintaining its buildings. It provides nothing else but "spiritual guidance" to citizens.
Church B runs an active food bank and it's missionary work involves active assistance to homeless.
l argue that Church A is not giving anything back to the community of value, and would not be exempt from any property taxes that cover municipal costs.
Church B, on the other hand, is directly lowering the cost of those services that may otherwise fall on taxpayers, and should receive a partial to full exemption from property taxes.
OK, I read the whole thing in one fell swoop. AT first I multi-quote some posts but I feel that had I been involved earlier, I would have responded but now they're moot. Here are my multis from post #208 on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
You may have never knocked on anyone's door, but rare is the church that doesn't try to get their members to "spread the word" one way or another, to recruit more church members, often by way of door-to-door solicitation, I mean ministry. I might be wrong, but I think this is what many people are referring to when it comes to their annoyance when that door bell rings. I've had missionaries at my door more than a few times and although I would rather not have solicitation of any kind at my home, it doesn't bother me all that much. Sometimes it's just the literature left at my door. I can think of worse problems to have at my door...
Then of course, there are the missionaries who go overseas to gain new followers. Religions often like to tout how their numbers have grown, but unfortunately (for them), in America, people affiliating themselves with organized religion seems to be trending downward.
I actually went on a mission trip once, not overseas but to South America. The point was not to recruit or convert, but to (get this) provide health care! There was no recruitment or conversion about it. (If there was, they wouldn't have asked me to go.) I don't know why some people can't get that other people will actually do good with no ulterior motives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel Calzadilla
Let's put all churches in America to pay taxes. Easy peasy.
Let me repeat: For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc
Not if you worded it properly. You can exempt some non profits while taxing "Religious or Faith based organizations." Oh, look what I did, made rules that only apply to part of non-profits.
Would not pass a Supreme Court challenge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyyc
Except they act very much like "for profit" organizations with large bonuses an payouts to their "executives" and not enough spend on their supposed mission.
Actually, no. My old church had to quit giving staff bonuses because it threatened their tax-exempt status.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Just as I am sure you are writing the absolute truth, about your experience, I can assure I am doing the same about mine, and yes of course we all experience these sorts of things quite differently depending on what we're paying attention to and most certainly depending on where we live; different states, urban or rural areas, big cities or small towns, at home on TV or while traveling, in church or at a concert...
That said, we all know, or should know anyway, that what we see up close and personal is not all that church leadership is doing in the way of gaining more church members. There is a lot more that goes on when it comes to missionary work and/or the effort to gain more church members than knocking on doors.
I have had flyers offered to me while walking in town. I have seen the religious pamphlets on tables in the middle of malls. I've seen people sitting next to their array of church materials on corners of busy streets. I know people who have gone on missions in other countries on behalf of their church. I know of church groups going to other countries for "humanitarian" purposes, but this too is also a way to recruit new members to their church. I've seen the billboards on freeways, and on and on, aside from those knocking on doors.
With all due respect to the number of experiences you personally can count on one hand...
Please see what I said about the mission trip I went on. My daughter went on such a trip as well, to do day care while the parents were getting health care. Again, if they'd wanted someone who would preach to people, they wouldn't have asked her along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
I'll give you the off-duty officers. Honestly, if they are off-duty then they have no business directing traffic, but we'll bend the rules for churches since we already bend them when it comes to paying taxes.
Sounds like you are making the assumption that churches ARE non-profit. There really is no point even trying to carry on further debate.
Are you really that, well, thick? Churches know they have to two the line. Of course churches are non-profit. They know they can get in trouble otherwise. I don't know how a church would make a "profit" anyway. It's not selling anything. It's asking for contributions. The point of a NP is that any excess funds have to be re-invested in the operation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Again much in the way of "good, bad and ugly" when it comes this subject. You do a good job of describing the good that most certainly deserves serious consideration. Not the whole story of course, but an important part.
What comes to my mind anyway, is other ways people can help people in need that doesn't necessarily involve religion or the church. If the 12-step groups were not meeting in your basement, for example, would this mean they would not meet somewhere else instead? Is part of the church's intention to be there for people who are hurting, in part as another way to add new members to the church? The 12-step group may not help the church financially, directly, but indirectly we all know church members do. Many people will join a church out of despair. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
It seems that religion does motivate people to do good things that perhaps they would not do if not for religious influence. Hard to deny that simple fact in any case...
Maybe. Our church just did a survey and found that space for public meetings is in very short supply in my area. And it sounds like MightyQueen's church is letting the 12-step groups meet there for FREE!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81
You have to pay people to do the work. Nobody should have to work for free - not even at a non-profit.
How do you propose to determine which salaries and bonuses are acceptable and which are not? How do you propose to apply that to all non-profits?
Many police departments have this policy to allow their officers to earn extra money and raise a little revenue. Plenty of for-profit places use off-duty officers for traffic control, too. You don't think the cops you see directing traffic at big events or escorting a funeral procession are working for free, do you?
It's not an assumption; if a church has a 501c3, it's a non-profit.
The non-profit I work for provides me with professional development. It pays me to recruit volunteers, to recruit new members, and to retain current members. It buys t- shirts for me to wear to summer camp. Every now and then it buys lunch or dinner for some or all employees. It pays me to solicit donations and sponsorships.
How is what churches do any different?
Then we need to close the loopholes, and not throw the baby out with the bath water.
You've obviously never filled out a non-profit tax return.
And how are free bees going to help? Should we all go into the honey business?
You wanna explain that one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Yes, I believe everything you say, and I've heard others tell similar stories, which is why I know that my experience isn't the same as that of others in some parts of the country.
But, if you recall, I was responding to your statement that "rare is the church" that doesn't do this type of recruiting, and I'm telling you that it's not all that rare. Many churches are there as a community for the people who come in through its doors for whatever reason and who have a common interest. Mine is one of them. It's the real reason I am there--community. If it were a church focusing on trolling for more members, or a church that didn't accept everyone, or a church that believed its way was the only way, I wouldn't be there.
I suspect that the multicultural nature of New Jersey has a lot to do with it, too.
Let me tell you about my church and what it does. We are a "Reconciling in Christ" Lutheran church meaning we are open and affirming to the LGBQT population.
We do do a few things for our neighbors. For example, our church has an excellent location to watch the 4th of July fireworks in Boulder, CO. So we have not just a church members' 4th of July party, but a neighborhood 4th of July party, gathering to watch the fireworks and socialize, handing out ice cream, glow sticks, etc. Ditto at Easter, we have a neighborhood Easter egg hunt. These events are publicized with leaflets, but no one is pressured into coming back for Sunday worship. (And they don't!) Other than that, as in your church, people do just fine their way in.
***************
That's it for my multiquotes, but I'm not done! Someone mentioned church being a social organization. Well, yes, it is. In fact, "fellowship" is encouraged. Those of you criticizing this aspect of religion need to take a look at this: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...p-them-healthy
In point of fact, I once read that church is the last place that many elderly continue to go, long after they've given up the book club, the card club, the golf group, whatever.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 08-21-2018 at 05:40 PM..
Yes, and even though I have sat on the board of local, regional and national charities, I see nothing wrong with any charity or church paying for services they require from a municipality. However, I would not be opposed to an equal value argument that such a church or non-profit may make.
Let's take some examples.
Church A spends its funds on promoting its religion locally, nationally and in foreign countries, as well as maintaining its buildings. It provides nothing else but "spiritual guidance" to citizens.
Church B runs an active food bank and it's missionary work involves active assistance to homeless.
l argue that Church A is not giving anything back to the community of value, and would not be exempt from any property taxes that cover municipal costs.
Church B, on the other hand, is directly lowering the cost of those services that may otherwise fall on taxpayers, and should receive a partial to full exemption from property taxes.
The same formula should apply to any non-profit.
It's highly unlikely that Church A is doing nothing but religious services.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.
Again much in the way of "good, bad and ugly" when it comes this subject. You do a good job of describing the good that most certainly deserves serious consideration. Not the whole story of course, but an important part.
It seems that religion does motivate people to do good things that perhaps they would not do if not for religious influence. Hard to deny that simple fact in any case...
I missed this post until I just saw it quoted in someone else's post. I apologize for not answering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
What comes to my mind anyway, is other ways people can help people in need that doesn't necessarily involve religion or the church. If the 12-step groups were not meeting in your basement, for example, would this mean they would not meet somewhere else instead?
I am not in the program myself, but I have family and friends who are, and I believe the 12-Step groups seek out their meeting space, the churches don't actively seek them. Churches usually just happen to have the type of facilities they need--a place for a bunch of chairs and a place to make coffee, and often space not in use. They are not permitted to meet in private homes, I know that. What else do you have? Schools? Don't think that would always go over. American Legion/VFW halls? Maybe. I don't know if any groups use them. Any AA meeting I've ever attended, and that's probably three or four, were in churches.
We ask each group (there are four or five) for $30 a month to help offset costs, and I believe AA itself requires its attendees to pay for their meeting space. We don't always get it, because AA pays for its meeting spaces through donations collected by passing a basket. However, a lot of these people are picking up the pieces, and some attendees for the NA meeting, at least, are bused in a from a local correctional facility. These people don't have a buck to toss in the basket.
In lights/heat/air-conditioning and toilet paper, the groups cost us about $3,000 a year. We get a fraction of that from them, but it doesn't matter because its the right thing to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Is part of the church's intention to be there for people who are hurting, in part as another way to add new members to the church?
Kind of cynical, no? About 30 people or so are currently regularly active in my church. I know most of them pretty well, and I don't know one single person out of them who would help hurting people because it's another way to add new members to the church. I find that a rather dark thought. But no. Just no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
The 12-step group may not help the church financially, directly, but indirectly we all know church members do. Many people will join a church out of despair. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
No, that's not how it works with 12-step groups. They are separate and apart from the church and usually only have contact with the guy who is responsible for the church building. Inviting them to church is forbidden. We respect the "Anonymous" in their name. They even have their own coffeepots and separate cabinet and refrigerator space.
I find your "indirectly we know all church members do" interesting. Well, no, all church members do not help the church financially. Some of them don't have any money! Seriously, the bulk of the budget is carried by a few rather than the many.
As I mentioned earlier when I told of finding 1916 vestry minutes, if we were about money and trying to recruit members to get money, we've been failing miserably for more than one hundred years. This parish has always been small and broke.
Do you not understand that you are taxing the person who paid to have the roads by way of taxes, that they will get taxed again? They are not paying less, but more. The only way not to get taxed again is to not donate their money to the church.
That makes zero sense. If you shop at a business who owns the property, you pay property taxes and so does the business. By your logic only homeowners need to pay property tax because somehow otherwise its double taxing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
You're also lobbying to have only the rich man's church available to the cities. Because we all bloody well know that a poor man's church is not going to be able to afford taxes. (establishing a religion)
Now one could argue that if only the rich man's church survive the tax man, rich and poor man would have to worship in the same church, there by creating a unity of the two classes. Only in a perfect world.
All I am saying is if you want to attend church, pay for it. I don't want to pay for it directly or indirectly. How churches figure that out is not my problem. If they can't pay the property taxes move the church and sell the land. With $25K in property taxes the property has to be worth a lot of money. Lots of churches just rent out office space. You say 30 people attend. Should be able to find something that fits your group.
I have no issue with Habitat for Humanity or a no kill pet shelter or a charity that benefits homeless or veterans getting special treatment because its entirely there for the community good. Your church is there for you and the others who attend to worship. Any other things you do like a food pantry or drug counseling can be done by any non profit. Saying it needs to be there for those other things is disingenuous.
That makes zero sense. If you shop at a business who owns the property, you pay property taxes and so does the business. By your logic only homeowners need to pay property tax because somehow otherwise its double taxing.
All I am saying is if you want to attend church, pay for it. I don't want to pay for it directly or indirectly. How churches figure that out is not my problem.
Nor is your not liking the way it's always been my problem. Until you are able to change that it is only your problem.
That makes zero sense. If you shop at a business who owns the property, you pay property taxes and so does the business. By your logic only homeowners need to pay property tax because somehow otherwise its double taxing.
All I am saying is if you want to attend church, pay for it. I don't want to pay for it directly or indirectly. How churches figure that out is not my problem. If they can't pay the property taxes move the church and sell the land. With $25K in property taxes the property has to be worth a lot of money. Lots of churches just rent out office space. You say 30 people attend. Should be able to find something that fits your group.
I have no issue with Habitat for Humanity or a no kill pet shelter or a charity that benefits homeless or veterans getting special treatment because its entirely there for the community good. Your church is there for you and the others who attend to worship. Any other things you do like a food pantry or drug counseling can be done by any non profit. Saying it needs to be there for those other things is disingenuous.
If I shop at a business I am not paying whole sale price, but retail price which will include in the price their profits to pay their building taxes. I also pay a State Sales tax when making a purchase at a business ... that money goes to the general funds of the State.
When I work and I earn a dollar a % of that dollar is taken, even before I see my earnings, it goes to the government. What I have left is then tithed to the Church, now another % of my earnings is going to go to the government, again. (In what world does one who professes to be a libertarian condone this?) By my logic property tax is double taxing ... Yes it is!
However, since we are voluntarily forced to pay all those taxes ... the fire department, police department, and the roads to go to that church ... have been paid for by me and everyone else who goes there to fellowship, have prepaid for that building to be there.
Community help from the faith based ... Supreme Court Decision 1970
This exemption is implemented by N.Y. Real Prop. Tax Law § 420(1).
This provision states in part: Real property owned by a corporation or association organized exclusively for the moral or mental improvement of men and women, or for religious, bible, tract, charitable, benevolent, missionary, hospital, infirmary, educational, public playground, scientific, literary, bar association, medical society, library, patriotic, historical or cemetery purposes and used exclusively for carrying out thereupon one or more of such purposes shall be exempt from taxation as provided in this section.
If all non-governmental property in Allegany County is taxed, the county could reportedly bring in $7 million more in revenue. However, an area church official says, the results won’t all be good. <snip>
All of a sudden, we would be hit with something we haven’t had to face in the past,”?he said. “We base all the things that we do on the fact that we do not have to pay taxes on the buildings.”
Crucial services Churches provide a community will then either be eliminated or relegated to a cash-strapped local government if the churches lose their tax exemptions. Local taxes will then increase to cover those costs.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 08-21-2018 at 10:37 PM..
Reason: add
The idea of taxing churches is just another way to attack Christianity. Leftist cockroaches figure they can shut down thousands of churches by taxing them. The goal is not revenue, it is really an effort to persecute Christians and prevent the spread of the good news about Jesus. They truly hate Christianity and this suggestion of taxing churches is proof.
The fact that this thread exists and how many people have no problem with this is a testament to how serious our problems are in this nation. When these people take power (and they will as they soon will have numerical superiority) they will take our freedoms, they will assault Christianity and Christian values. We must prepare to use all means necessary to stop them, the enemy must be defeated. The atheist SJW vermin cannot be allowed to remake America to their liking.
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Seriously, the bulk of the budget is carried by a few rather than the many.
The war on poor people continues ...
