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Seldom are all things equal and I wouldn't assume that in academia where they tend to bend over backwards for minorities that they're suddenly going to favor white students even though everything is equal. They look at more than just grades and community service.
The data says black and Asian students with the same qualifications are picked less than their white counterparts - nationwide. Moreover, the study includes more than test scores and community service. That's why I said et cetera.
The bias comes when choosing the 16% of the top 25% who qualify. So what part are you confused by?
The data says black and Asian students with the same qualifications are picked less than their white counterparts - nationwide. Moreover, the study includes more than test scores and community service. That's why I said et cetera.
The bias comes when choosing the 16% of the top 25% who qualify. So what part are you confused by?
I'm not confused. I'm saying we don't know enough to state whether or not there is a bias or whether legitimate factors beyond test scores and community service play a part.
I'll give you an example. A friends son is out of medical school and doing his residency and says the most disgruntled, will complain about anything and everything groups are black females and Indian males. If this is the norm, then they may be denied due to a lack of professionalism.
That's one persons experience, of course, which I'm just using as a possible example but unless I know more, I'm unwilling to jump on the 'this is wrong' bandwagon.
I'm not confused. I'm saying we don't know enough to state whether or not there is a bias or whether legitimate factors beyond test scores and community service play a part.
I'll give you an example. A friends son is out of medical school and doing his residency and says the most disgruntled, will complain about anything and everything groups are black females and Indian males. If this is the norm, then they may be denied due to a lack of professionalism.
That's one persons experience, of course, which I'm just using as a possible example but unless I know more, I'm unwilling to jump on the 'this is wrong' bandwagon.
How so? The study analyzes 4655 applications from across the country. I'm saying the empirical data shows equally qualified black and Asian students are less likely to be admitted. In general, facts are preferable to anecdotes.
Quote:
A total of 4655 unique applications were analyzed in the study (median age, 26 years; 2133 women [45.8%]). Overall, self-reported race/ethnicity in our sample was 2605 (56.0%) white (691 [71.5%] of AΩA applicants were white), 276 (5.9%) black (7 [0.7%] AΩA), 186 (4.0%) Hispanic (27 [2.8%] AΩA), and 1170 (25.1%) Asian (168 [17.4%] AΩA). After controlling for US Medical Licensing Examination Step 1 scores, research productivity, community service, leadership activity, and Gold Humanism membership, the study found that black (adjusted odds ratio [aOR], 0.16; 95% CI, 0.07-0.37) and Asian (aOR, 0.52; 95% CI, 0.42-0.65) medical students remained less likely to be AΩA members than white medical students. No statistically significant difference was found in AΩA membership between white and Hispanic medical students (aOR, 0.79; 99% CI, 0.45-1.37) in the adjusted model.
How so? The study analyzes 4655 applications from across the country. I'm saying the empirical data shows equally qualified black and Asian students are less likely to be admitted. In general, facts are preferable to anecdotes.
You said there were "legitimate factors" beyond test scores and community service.
---Yes, the study accounts for many factors beyond test scores and community service.
But not all factors, most importantly not the individual student's reputation among colleagues and professors who know him or her well.
Quote:
---Ok, but how about addressing the study of over 4000 students that contradicts the OP.
So I am a little confused about the point you're trying to make.
There is no contradiction, as MPowering has clearly explained to you. Go back and read his posts again if you are still confused.
The study you refer to does find that blacks and Asians are picked for the honor society at a slightly lower rate than whites after controlling for some factors like membership in certain groups and self reported leadership activities. But we cannot conclude from this that "equally qualified" people got different treatment since the evaluation of nominees for honors was comprehensive and partly based on the overall judgement of professors and no two students could be equal. Yes, it is possible that some profs are racist and that accounts for a tiny part of the discrepancy. But there is no good evidence for that and it's absurd to think it's an important factor in differing outcomes.
Last edited by The Dark Enlightenment; 09-07-2018 at 08:32 PM..
Yeah, I have an excuse. I'm a minority. It's tough typing while simultaneously dancing and singing.
Woe is me.
Is dancing and singing *code* for mugging and thugging with guns, bling, money and drugs? If so, then yes, that does make it tough to type.
I thought you were in a hurry and made a simple mistake, much like many of us do when we type there instead of they're or their or accept vs except. And I assume Burdell was also in a hurry and made a simple mistake because I know he's smarter than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment
But not all factors, most importantly not the individual student's reputation among colleagues and professors who know him or her well.
There is no contradiction, as MPowering has clearly explained to you. Go back and read his posts again if you are still confused.
The study you refer to does find that blacks and Asians are picked for the honor society at a slightly lower rate than whites after controlling for some factors like membership in certain groups and self reported leadership activities. But we cannot conclude from this that "equally qualified" people got different treatment since the evaluation of nominees for honors was comprehensive and partly based on the overall judgement of professors and no two students could be equal. Yes, it is possible that some profs are racist and that accounts for a tiny part of the discrepancy. But there is no good evidence for that and it's absurd to think it's an important factor in differing outcomes.
Thanks, TDE, that's exactly what I'm saying and you said it better than I.
Black and Hispanic medical students don't make the honor society as often as other medical students. That's racist, dontcha know. So a leading med school in NYC will stop nominating students for honors entirely. This a national problem, we are told by NPR, which cites an expert who claims it isn't fair to judge med students of color by the same standard:
Not to worry though, it isn't like training good doctors is a matter of life and death, right?
NPR
Unfortunately, cognitive talents don't appear to be distributed evenly among various groups. Thus, it is completely unsurprising to see some groups overrepresented and other groups underrepresented in various things which require a lot of cognitive ability.
Liberals are eventually going to have to acknowledge the possibility that not all groups of humans evolved completely identically--including in regards to important traits such as intelligence. For instance, it is entirely possible that Ashkenazi Jews--at least those who descendants ended up in the U.S.--evolved to have a higher average IQ--which in turn explains their significant overrepresentation in various fields which require a lot of cognitive ability.
I support things such as wealth redistribution and help for America's poor and needy. However, we have to acknowledge the possibility that not all groups have the exact same potential when it comes to things such as average level of intelligence. Also, before you go and start shaming me for this, I would like to point out that my own liberal hereditarian position is much better than a colorblind conservative position which assumes that everyone has the same potential and that the reason that certain groups are underperforming is simply because they don't try hard enough. After all, the latter position here is much more destructive for underperforming groups than the former position is--especially considering that the latter position here can be used to cut or even completely eliminate our social safety net--thus putting underperforming groups in an even more vulnerable position!
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