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View Poll Results: Who do you consider "your people"
All Americans 74 33.04%
Americans who share your religion 2 0.89%
Americans who share your ethnicity/race 13 5.80%
Americans who share your ethnicity AND religion 6 2.68%
People of your religion anywhere in the world 1 0.45%
People of your ethnicity/race anywhere in the world 14 6.25%
People of your state regardless of background 4 1.79%
People of your region (South, New England, etc) regardless of background 9 4.02%
People of your immediate community regardless of background 12 5.36%
Other 89 39.73%
Voters: 224. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-20-2018, 01:02 AM
 
9,418 posts, read 13,439,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
Something that's very telling too.....my father was born in China but immigrated LEGALLY over 30 years ago to the US. He is a naturalized citizen and now considers the U.S. to be his people now over China and wants the U.S. to be stronger than China and he's a very strong Trump supporter who wants us to not back down in any trade war with China and wants America to be the dominant power in any trade relationship.

Contrast this to the second generation Mexican Americans who still consider themselves Mexican first and believe in things like DACA, open borders, etc that benefit their people over the AMerican people.
Your second paragraph is very telling. A second generation Mexican American is American and yet you refer to them as believing in things that benefit THEIR people over American people, as if they aren't American. As for your father, you know what makes me sad, Tom? No matter that he supports Trump, plop him down in the middle of your typical Trump rally and there will be a good amount of people there giving him the side eye.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,818,152 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
I agree. But Catgirl and other liberals often say that whites at a national or racial level should not have this "tribal-pride" you mention. I'm of the belief they need more than they current have of it not less.
The less tribal pride the better off we are regardless of which "tribe" we speak of.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,906 posts, read 5,546,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
You can be proud of anyone or anything. You can certainly be proud (happiness and satisfaction) of your own admirable qualities or shameful even if you did nothing to acquire them.

People who tell you shouldn't be proud want you to be humble and shameful.

In your own example, parents can be proud of their good children, their children can be proud of their good parents and proud of themselves insofar they behaved as good kids.
But I don't think of pride as being the same as happiness and satisfaction. They can coexist, of course, but they are not the same thing. Along similar lines, I don't consider an absence of pride to be the same thing as feeling ashamed. I feel proud when I have done something I know is good or difficult, and ashamed when I know I have behaved badly. There are also plenty of times when I feel neither proud nor ashamed.

As for my own admirable qualities, those with which I was born, but did nothing to acquire, why should I be proud? I did nothing to earn them - they are gifts for which I am grateful. That's not shame, although it might (I hope) be humility. If you think my views on this mean that I am some kind of groveling, whining victim, filled with self-loathing, you would be badly mistaken. I am not.

It sounds to me like you are confusing pride with self-respect.

Last edited by Catgirl64; 09-20-2018 at 01:33 AM..
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,906 posts, read 5,546,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
I agree. But Catgirl and other liberals often say that whites at a national or racial level should not have this "tribal-pride" you mention. I'm of the belief they need more than they current have of it not less.
Good heavens, you really do think it's all about race, don't you? I was talking about any characteristic that is inborn - race, nationality, IQ, height, gender, eye color, you name it. Those things are not achievements, they're just facts, and as such, are, at least by my definition, not a source of either pride or shame. This has nothing at all to do with your mistaken image of me as a "guilty white liberal."
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:43 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,351 posts, read 28,421,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
Tying part of your self worth to the country you live in is a crutch for losers, yes. Your parents having sex/giving birth in some location on Earth is not exactly a feat of strength or ingenuity.

If I moved to Haiti it would be for a good reason and I would be successful there to - otherwise I wouldn't move there.
No, you would not have the same opportunities in a country like Haiti as you would in the United States. There is a vast gulf in wealth and income between the U.S. and 3rd world countries. Equality does not exist in the world, believe it or not.

This is why I don't understand people who aren't proud and grateful to be Americans.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:57 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,289,778 times
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Oh, America, where we all feel compelled to tell each other how to feel about our country and not singing the national anthem at the top of our lungs is one step short of sedition!
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:22 AM
 
13,520 posts, read 4,828,919 times
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I've never used the term "my people" and never really thought of it that way. My ancestry is northern European but I don't necessarily think of people from that region as my people. I'm a native-born American, but might have more in common with people from Canada or Europe than from certain parts of the US.

I'm a scientist, so if anything I'd have to say the scientific community is "my people". This is a highly diverse community, with members of many nationalities, colors, languages and cultures. But we are linked by the scientific method, which is a sort of universal language or common thought process.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:31 AM
 
62,637 posts, read 28,812,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
But this matters in politics. For example, an American whose loyalty is to the American people would oppose illegal immigration and the Dream Act, while a Mexican American who sees himself as Mexican would support chain migration, open borders, etc because that would be in the best interests of "his people."

The fact is that because I consider Americans to be my people (and not foreign nationals), as sorry as I may feel for the illegal families at the border, I don't want them in because we need to look out for our own interests first. We need to do what's best for the American people.

Excellent post! Far to many Mexican-Americans are tribal and put Mexicans first before the rights and needs of the rest of us Americans.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:32 AM
 
13,520 posts, read 4,828,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
But this matters in politics. For example, an American whose loyalty is to the American people would oppose illegal immigration and the Dream Act, while a Mexican American who sees himself as Mexican would support chain migration, open borders, etc because that would be in the best interests of "his people."
.
You may be right about illegal immigration, but not the Dreamers. A person who was brought to this country as a child, grew up here, went to school and college here and is now working and contributing to society - I consider that person as American as I am. It is in both their and my self-interest to find a way to allow them to stay.

As for Mexican-Americans, you really can't make generalized statements about what they would support.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:35 AM
 
62,637 posts, read 28,812,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXNGL View Post
Your second paragraph is very telling. A second generation Mexican American is American and yet you refer to them as believing in things that benefit THEIR people over American people, as if they aren't American. As for your father, you know what makes me sad, Tom? No matter that he supports Trump, plop him down in the middle of your typical Trump rally and there will be a good amount of people there giving him the side eye.

No one said that those from Mexican heritage who hold citizenship in this country are less Americans on paper than anyone else. The unfortunate truth is that far too many Mexicans here legally or that are citizens of this country do put Mexicans first up to and including wanting Mexicans to be able to come here illegally and then rewarded with amnesty. It's a tribal mentality. Sorry if the truth bothers you.
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