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This isn’t personal, and it shouldn’t be taken that way. Simply put, I don’t put the black community’s issues out there in a way that gives the impression that I’m interested in the opinions of non blacks on the matter. Why? Because I’m really not interested. African Americans may or may not be doing a good job of dealing with many of the community’s internal issues, but that’s our problem.
While I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain your viewpoint, it seems to make less sense to me.
Simply put if blacks and by extension black culture in America is in decline, it is all of our business, not just blacks alone.
If that were the case, they would be paying their own way, not getting disproportionate tax funding via government handouts, government services, etc.
They would only do business with black owned shops, maintain their own neighborhood etc.
Blacks would also be footing the bill for their own costs of paying for prison beds, healthcare, etc.
No, blacks may want to deal with "their own problems" which is admirable, but they are American citizens and we must all share the load. Regardless of what shade of skin we are, we must pull together rather than become more isolated.
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So as to the guy you’re talking about, what am I to say about that? Okay, he’s outgrown his childhood friends. That doesn’t happen to white people? Hell, I’ve outgrown many of MY white friends from my adolescence and college years. What’s a man to do? Regress? No, you just keep it moving.
When one person confides in another or asks for their viewpoint, why should such conversations only involve people of the same race, religion, gender, etc.?
This guy was not talking about outgrowing his black friends from a maturity standpoint, rather they were turning their backs on him because he was making something of himself (presumably). They were also using race as an excuse for it as he alluded to.
Heck come to think of it another guy who I worked with had a problem with his two sons. He would have them on two weekends per month because of a divorce. He spoke with me at length about how he feared they were going to turn into mutants, because his ex-wife let them run wild and they had become disrespectful and doing poor in school.
The fact I was white didn't seem relevant to him when talking to me, nor should it. Granted it wasn't even related to race, but two human beings can sit together and talk without race being a factor, at least in the world I live in.
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What the guy told you isn’t emblematic of black folks...resentment isn’t a word that was created to describe black people solely. The guy simply outgrew his pals for whatever reason, and he feels that there’s lingering resentment because of it. Maybe he’s reading the tea leaves wrong. Maybe he’s only giving his side.
So why are you taking his story and extrapolating some sorta weird racial narrative over it?
I don't characterize it that way, but you obviously do. I cannot imagine being a certain race and suddenly having my friends of that race wanting to shun me because I was not being enough of what they thought I should be.
While it may not be the norm in black culture, I have never heard of such a thing in white culture. Even if someone didn't think a person was being black enough(whatever that might mean), since when is trying to get ahead and increase ones station in life considered a non black thing to do?
While I appreciate you taking the time to try and explain your viewpoint, it seems to make less sense to me.
Simply put if blacks and by extension black culture in America is in decline, it is all of our business, not just blacks alone.
If that were the case, they would be paying their own way, not getting disproportionate tax funding via government handouts, government services, etc.
They would only do business with black owned shops, maintain their own neighborhood etc.
Blacks would also be footing the bill for their own costs of paying for prison beds, healthcare, etc.
No, blacks may want to deal with "their own problems" which is admirable, but they are American citizens and we must all share the load. Regardless of what shade of skin we are, we must pull together rather than become more isolated.
When one person confides in another or asks for their viewpoint, why should such conversations only involve people of the same race, religion, gender, etc.?
This guy was not talking about outgrowing his black friends from a maturity standpoint, rather they were turning their backs on him because he was making something of himself (presumably). They were also using race as an excuse for it as he alluded to.
Heck come to think of it another guy who I worked with had a problem with his two sons. He would have them on two weekends per month because of a divorce. He spoke with me at length about how he feared they were going to turn into mutants, because his ex-wife let them run wild and they had become disrespectful and doing poor in school.
The fact I was white didn't seem relevant to him when talking to me, nor should it. Granted it wasn't even related to race, but two human beings can sit together and talk without race being a factor, at least in the world I live in.
I don't characterize it that way, but you obviously do. I cannot imagine being a certain race and suddenly having my friends of that race wanting to shun me because I was not being enough of what they thought I should be.
While it may not be the norm in black culture, I have never heard of such a thing in white culture. Even if someone didn't think a person was being black enough(whatever that might mean), since when is trying to get ahead and increase ones station in life considered a non black thing to do?
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Last thing first: whoever said that raising your station in life is a non black thing to do? No black person ever told you that. That’s conjecture on your part based on your preconceived notions. You’re projecting that on black folks because YOU believe that we feel that way and you felt that way long before some guy told you a story. I mean, at least keep it real with me.
Again, he’s giving you his side. What’s the other side? It’s anecdotal anyway.
Moreover, I never told you that I thought black culture was in decline. If I thought that, I wouldn’t tell you anyway. I never said a thing about what my opinion on the state of Black America is. So again, YOU inadvertently gave your opinion. Or maybe it wasn’t inadvertent.. maybe you’re just looking for an opening to tell me how you feel about Black America. That’s fine, but your opinion doesn’t really interest me in the least.
Disproportionate tax funding, government handouts or government services? I don’t see it that way. Not even a little bit. African Americans were disenfranchised for most of our history in this country even while we made very important contributions. We fought in all of this nation’s wars to give freedoms to others while we were denied full rights right here in our own country.
So you’ll have to excuse me for not apologizing for a single benefit received whether it’s received disproportionately or not. I couldn’t possible care less. This country has spent trillions helping to rebuild nations and defend freedom all over this world while stiffing its own black citizens. Hell, German POW’s had more rights in this country than black soldiers did. I can’t forget indignities like that. The vestiges of evil **** like that are still with us even if statutorily, the laws that enforced it are in obsolescence.
Lastly, the whole “we’re all Americans and we must share in the load” is disingenuous. That’s bunk. We’re all Americans, but we ain’t all in it together by any means. That’s mellifluous rhetoric, but it’s pollyanaish and somewhat utopian. That’s NEVER been the case in this country where it involves African Americans, and I doubt it’ll ever be the case in my lifetime. It’s flowery language that makes nice on websites like this one, but it lacks seriousness and is naive on its face. And coming from you, it’s bemusing...to put it mildly.
In any case, your friend decided to spill his guts to you about something that you can’t help him with and you can’t relate to....that is, if you’re buying into the racial component of his story. Intra-Black issues aren’t in your wheelhouse, and there’s no useful advice that you can really offer him that he can use. And even if I had the answers myself (I’d need to hear both sides), I’d tell him...not you. Lol!
That’s the line I’ve been pushing for 50 years and it ain’t gonna change now.
Last thing first: whoever said that raising your station in life is a non black thing to do? No black person ever told you that. That’s conjecture on your part based on your preconceived notions. You’re projecting that on black folks because YOU believe that we feel that way and you felt that way long before some guy told you a story. I mean, at least keep it real with me.
Again, he’s giving you his side. What’s the other side? It’s anecdotal anyway.
Moreover, I never told you that I thought black culture was in decline. If I thought that, I wouldn’t tell you anyway. I never said a thing about what my opinion on the state of Black America is. So again, YOU inadvertently gave your opinion. Or maybe it wasn’t inadvertent.. maybe you’re just looking for an opening to tell me how you feel about Black America. That’s fine, but your opinion doesn’t really interest me in the least.
Disproportionate tax funding, government handouts or government services? I don’t see it that way. Not even a little bit. African Americans were disenfranchised for most of our history in this country even while we made very important contributions. We fought in all of this nation’s wars to give freedoms to others while we were denied full rights right here in our own country.
So you’ll have to excuse me for not apologizing for a single benefit received whether it’s received disproportionately or not. I couldn’t possible care less. This country has spent trillions helping to rebuild nations and defend freedom all over this world while stiffing its own black citizens. Hell, German POW’s had more rights in this country than black soldiers did. I can’t forget indignities like that. The vestiges of evil **** like that are still with us even if statutorily, the laws that enforced it are in obsolescence.
Lastly, the whole “we’re all Americans and we must share in the load” is disingenuous. That’s bunk. We’re all Americans, but we ain’t all in it together by any means. That’s mellifluous rhetoric, but it’s pollyanaish and somewhat utopian. That’s NEVER been the case in this country where it involves African Americans, and I doubt it’ll ever be the case in my lifetime. It’s flowery language that makes nice on websites like this one, but it lacks seriousness and is naive on its face. And coming from you, it’s bemusing...to put it mildly.
In any case, your friend decided to spill his guts to you about something that you can’t help him with and you can’t relate to....that is, if you’re buying into the racial component of his story. Intra-Black issues aren’t in your wheelhouse, and there’s no useful advice that you can really offer him that he can use. And even if I had the answers myself (I’d need to hear both sides), I’d tell him...not you. Lol!
That’s the line I’ve been pushing for 50 years and it ain’t gonna change now.
ITA with this post and especially the bold. IMO it is both naive to think we are "all in this together" and ridiculous considering the history of this nation and the fact that that phrase has been used by whites for hundreds of years while society as a whole pro-actively practice overt, intense racial discrimination. It is laughable actually lol!
And FWIW I do think that things have gotten better in regards to past issues - unlike other people, I don't think things are "getting worse" because I have an in depth historical education on how "worse" it used to be even 40 years ago it was WAY worse.
For Vector1 your whole post that this one is in response to is very lacking in a knowledge of what a "black experience" in America is and that this experience defines black culture.
I watched an excellent program last night on PBS's "Secrets of the Dead" that focused on a black woman (called the Iron Coffin Lady) who was unearthed during a construction job in Queens NY. Where she was buried was originally the cemetery of the free black community in Queens and she was subsequently given back to the church that is the descendant of that original church. NY's free black population has an awe inspiring story - they and other black people in the late 18th and 19th centuries really created and cemented what "black culture" is - it is a community focused on justice, education, community uplift (assistance to community members), and a focus on the importance of family and friends. Our culture is not in "decline." The fact that you would type something like this is more indicative of your own lack of knowledge about black American history and culture than anything else.
And note, as Americans, I do think "pulling together" is appropriate in certain situations, but IMO black people in this country should always look out for each other and be wary of the greater society's intention when it comes to our demographic. This is based precisely on our "black experience" in this country whereas when we are not cautious and not looking out for our"own" so to speak, our "own" become victims of greater society's unconcern and uncaring attitudes toward our people.
Last thing first: whoever said that raising your station in life is a non black thing to do? No black person ever told you that. That’s conjecture on your part based on your preconceived notions. You’re projecting that on black folks because YOU believe that we feel that way and you felt that way long before some guy told you a story. I mean, at least keep it real with me.
Well unless you think I am lying or embellishing what he told me, that is a pretty brazen comment to assume no such thing would be uttered by a black person. He, approached me with a subject I had not ever heard to that point.
Sure I have heard some blacks refer to others as "Uncle Tom" or "sellout", but frankly, I am not sure in what context that was said, nor would I understand it without an explanation.
So this is a real as it gets.
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Again, he’s giving you his side. What’s the other side? It’s anecdotal anyway.
How on earth would I know the answer to that question
His childhood friends were people I never met, so who knows what their point of view was. At the time, I would have liked to know, and if I could have brokered a reasoned discussion with them, maybe it would have been educational. Just because I am white, it does not mean I cannot understand something from a black perspective.
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Moreover, I never told you that I thought black culture was in decline.
Correct, nor did I claim that you did. I was speaking of comparing tangible statistics of the 1950's to those of today. For example, kids born out of wedlock were not at epidemic proportions back then in the black community compared with today.
While all races experience this problem, it is acute in the black community. Young boys raised without a positive male role model are already behind the curb no matter how well their moms do in trying to raise them right.
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If I thought that, I wouldn’t tell you anyway. I never said a thing about what my opinion on the state of Black America is. So again, YOU inadvertently gave your opinion. Or maybe it wasn’t inadvertent.. maybe you’re just looking for an opening to tell me how you feel about Black America. That’s fine, but your opinion doesn’t really interest me in the least.
There you go again, acting as if I am some outsider, thus not wanting to express your viewpoint to someone who is white. Don't you have any white friends you can confide in or that you respect their opinion enough to value their council?
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Disproportionate tax funding, government handouts or government services? I don’t see it that way. Not even a little bit. African Americans were disenfranchised for most of our history in this country even while we made very important contributions. We fought in all of this nation’s wars to give freedoms to others while we were denied full rights right here in our own country.
Regardless of how you see it, many large cities with black urban areas draw a disproportionate amount of resources in comparison to what they contribute in their own tax revenue.
As to blacks having lived through slavery and discrimination, that of course is factual. However, and I mean this seriously, I'd like to know when in your opinion, special privileges/assistance/care should stop based on past injustices?
Obviously no one is still alive from the slavery days, and few are still around that were effected by the segregated south.
Additionally, other areas of the country didn't have slavery, nor the type of racial discrimination experienced with black folks in the southern states.
Regardless, give me your estimate as to when special consideration should stop?
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So you’ll have to excuse me for not apologizing for a single benefit received whether it’s received disproportionately or not. I couldn’t possible care less. This country has spent trillions helping to rebuild nations and defend freedom all over this world while stiffing its own black citizens. Hell, German POW’s had more rights in this country than black soldiers did. I can’t forget indignities like that. The vestiges of evil **** like that are still with us even if statutorily, the laws that enforced it are in obsolescence.
Ok, fair enough, as I cannot appreciate what resentment you or other blacks might have for past injustice. I certainly am a person who can empathize with people being treated like dirt, even if I cannot fully get to a dark place where it stings.
Whether it be Jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazi's, Indians and Irish who suffered at the hands of the British, etc.
Yet as a human being, I can still understand how injustice breeds contempt. Trouble is, just as not all blacks faced the ills you described, not all whites were responsible for those who did. None of us are so monolithic that we are all victims or oppressors based on race, religion, etc.
Quote:
Lastly, the whole “we’re all Americans and we must share in the load” is disingenuous. That’s bunk. We’re all Americans, but we ain’t all in it together by any means. That’s mellifluous rhetoric, but it’s pollyanaish and somewhat utopian. That’s NEVER been the case in this country where it involves African Americans, and I doubt it’ll ever be the case in my lifetime. It’s flowery language that makes nice on websites like this one, but it lacks seriousness and is naive on its face. And coming from you, it’s bemusing...to put it mildly.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, as I am not some PC type or flower child from the 60's. I shudder to think my moderate to conservative street cred might have been damaged.
In all seriousness though, I do believe working together we are much more likely to accomplish mutually beneficial goals. More importantly we are all American citizens, so regardless of race, we must share in not only the blessings of this country, but her ills as well.
So my comment was predicated on those willing to work together to build a better future.
Let me give you a non racial example that might better explain my thoughts before I am labeled a communist.
If CA were to be struck by a natural disaster (earthquake, tidal wave, etc.) I think the entire country should pitch in to help CA recover.
However if they bankrupt themselves because of fiscally irresponsible governance, we should not give them a single dime of federal taxpayer money.
So I can have a warm heart, or be an unsympathetic hard a$$ depending on the situation.
Quote:
In any case, your friend decided to spill his guts to you about something that you can’t help him with and you can’t relate to....that is, if you’re buying into the racial component of his story. Intra-Black issues aren’t in your wheelhouse, and there’s no useful advice that you can really offer him that he can use. And even if I had the answers myself (I’d need to hear both sides), I’d tell him...not you. Lol!
That’s the line I’ve been pushing for 50 years and it ain’t gonna change now.
Come on now, can't old dogs learn new tricks? Sure it takes more effort, but anyone can change under the right set of circumstances. Sadly it sometimes takes a tragedy or life threatening illness to cause such a change.
Not to get sappy, but there is a nice song entitled "Live Like You Were Dying" by Tim McGraw. While country is not exactly my favorite type of music, it was a cross over hit and if you have heard it, you'd know why.
So hopefully you will not be intractable until you are close to meeting your maker like the songs story is told.
A particular line in that song, "I gave forgiveness that I had been denying" was very poignant.
Well unless you think I am lying or embellishing what he told me, that is a pretty brazen comment to assume no such thing would be uttered by a black person. He, approached me with a subject I had not ever heard to that point.
Sure I have heard some blacks refer to others as "Uncle Tom" or "sellout", but frankly, I am not sure in what context that was said, nor would I understand it without an explanation.
So this is a real as it gets.
How on earth would I know the answer to that question
His childhood friends were people I never met, so who knows what their point of view was. At the time, I would have liked to know, and if I could have brokered a reasoned discussion with them, maybe it would have been educational. Just because I am white, it does not mean I cannot understand something from a black perspective.
Correct, nor did I claim that you did. I was speaking of comparing tangible statistics of the 1950's to those of today. For example, kids born out of wedlock were not at epidemic proportions back then in the black community compared with today.
While all races experience this problem, it is acute in the black community. Young boys raised without a positive male role model are already behind the curb no matter how well their moms do in trying to raise them right.
There you go again, acting as if I am some outsider, thus not wanting to express your viewpoint to someone who is white. Don't you have any white friends you can confide in or that you respect their opinion enough to value their council?
Regardless of how you see it, many large cities with black urban areas draw a disproportionate amount of resources in comparison to what they contribute in their own tax revenue.
As to blacks having lived through slavery and discrimination, that of course is factual. However, and I mean this seriously, I'd like to know when in your opinion, special privileges/assistance/care should stop based on past injustices?
Obviously no one is still alive from the slavery days, and few are still around that were effected by the segregated south.
Additionally, other areas of the country didn't have slavery, nor the type of racial discrimination experienced with black folks in the southern states.
Regardless, give me your estimate as to when special consideration should stop?
Ok, fair enough, as I cannot appreciate what resentment you or other blacks might have for past injustice. I certainly am a person who can empathize with people being treated like dirt, even if I cannot fully get to a dark place where it stings.
Whether it be Jews who suffered at the hands of the Nazi's, Indians and Irish who suffered at the hands of the British, etc.
Yet as a human being, I can still understand how injustice breeds contempt. Trouble is, just as not all blacks faced the ills you described, not all whites were responsible for those who did. None of us are so monolithic that we are all victims or oppressors based on race, religion, etc.
Yeah, don't get me wrong, as I am not some PC type or flower child from the 60's. I shudder to think my moderate to conservative street cred might have been damaged.
In all seriousness though, I do believe working together we are much more likely to accomplish mutually beneficial goals. More importantly we are all American citizens, so regardless of race, we must share in not only the blessings of this country, but her ills as well.
So my comment was predicated on those willing to work together to build a better future.
Let me give you a non racial example that might better explain my thoughts before I am labeled a communist.
If CA were to be struck by a natural disaster (earthquake, tidal wave, etc.) I think the entire country should pitch in to help CA recover.
However if they bankrupt themselves because of fiscally irresponsible governance, we should not give them a single dime of federal taxpayer money.
So I can have a warm heart, or be an unsympathetic hard a$$ depending on the situation.
Come on now, can't old dogs learn new tricks? Sure it takes more effort, but anyone can change under the right set of circumstances. Sadly it sometimes takes a tragedy or life threatening illness to cause such a change.
Not to get sappy, but there is a nice song entitled "Live Like You Were Dying" by Tim McGraw. While country is not exactly my favorite type of music, it was a cross over hit and if you have heard it, you'd know why.
So hopefully you will not be intractable until you are close to meeting your maker like the songs story is told.
A particular line in that song, "I gave forgiveness that I had been denying" was very poignant.
I don’t know what your friend’s problem is with other black folks. I don’t have those problems.
The only issue I have is that he came to you with it. That’s a no-no. That’s weak, and sad. I’d never do anything like that. I don’t discuss intra-black issues with non blacks...ever. That’s how I was raised and I still adhere to that rule. Whatever issues I have with fellow blacks will be dealt with among other blacks only. I don’t vent to outsiders.
So really, I don’t want to speculate on what his problem is. Yeah, we deride other blacks Intermittently, but there are reasons for that. Some good, and some bad....and I dont always endorse it. It’s situational. Blacks that work with people outside of the community to try and give the community a black eye will always face stiff derision...and I’ll participate in it.
But that’s all I’ll say about it.
You’re talking to a man that lived in Europe for 13 years and speaks 2 European languages (German & Italian) with conversational fluidity. I’m as worldly as it gets. I have a degree in International Studies (and Poli-Sci)
My door is far from shut. However, I know who I am and who I belong to first and foremost.
You can do whatever you want! You really think that I’m bothered by you extrapolating a single bad action over a whole community? LMAO...hell, black folks have been dealing with that attitude since we walked off the slavery ships. That’s nothing new.
You certainly don’t need my permission to be prejudicial. Besides, you were doing it anyway no matter what I say.
We don’t have to all like each other to live in this country. I’m fine with being disliked and held in circumspection. We’ve just gotta respect each other’s position. I won’t have my toes stepped on, and I’ll be sure not to step on yours. That’s all that’s required. Your thoughts are none of my concern.
It is insane, but I didn’t create the existential social state of this country. I’d love to sing Kumbaya, but people don’t want that, and I’m not gonna force it on people. If folks wanna be partisan, then I’m taking up the sword too. I don’t want it to be this way, but IT IS this way.
Yeah, ok. You can advocate for him doing that all you want. But I’mma tell you what you’re NOT gonna do...
Just because you Conservatives are pyssed about this transgender thing and you’ve seemingly lost that battle, you’re NOT gonna take it out on the African American community and try to force non blacks into our community and expect us to accept them. Ain’t gonna happen. Forget about it. No chance.
To be legitimately black in this country, you must be susceptible to every facet of black life...highs and lows. And by lows I mean the very lows. If you can hop in and out of your black costume at your caprice, then you’re not in the tribe, and we don’t identify with you and don’t really trust you. And we’ll make that known too...right in the imposter’s face. We won’t hide it.
Other African Americans here on CD are too nice and polite to tell you what I just said...but they know I’m right.
Why all this focus on being black? Why not just be a regular American and not care about what color your skin happens to be?
Why all this focus on being black? Why not just be a regular American and not care about what color your skin happens to be?
So you can only be a “regular American” if you see your own race as a meaningless happenstance that should be completely disregarded?
Okay. I’ll be watching your posts like a hawk on these racial topic threads. Let’s see just how race neutral you are.
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