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Silly for you, but not for people who live in areas with Sunday closing laws who likes a day of rest and no traffic congestion & family time which is something you don’t value.
I am an atheist (confirmed Protestant, but a non-believer). I've taken some mythology of religion courses in college, but have not really been all that interested in religion otherwise.
What is interesting is that I had sort of a philosophical discussion today with a woman I know who is also a Jehovah's Witness. They do not 'take sides' so they do not vote. Apparently Putin has been taking away land from the Jehovah's Witness church in Russia for the State (i.e. Putin). I was curious as to why they do not fight back. I was also curious what they would do if Hitler appeared on the scene--would they take a side or just submit? She said submit because they obey "Caesar's Law" until they cannot, and then they obey God's Law (the Bible, etc.).
I had never heard the term "Casesar's Law" before, so when you mention it, I'm just curious--is this a common religious term used in all religions that I somehow have never heard before? After speaking to her, I thought it was specific to her religion, so seeing it here was kind of weird (twice in the same day?).
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Originally Posted by rstevens62
Sure it is. Thats one reason Im on the fence when it comes to religious beliefs, the bible seems like a far too convenient 'tool', which benefits a secular world as much, or more so then a religious group/world..
Look at some of the things in the bible...'OBEY authorities, do as you are told, be obedient towards to your masters, etc etc.
Its funny, whenever that verse 'Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is Gods', comes up, most people automatically think it means we must obey 'Caesar'/Govt/authority in the same way we must obey God and his laws....
Actually it means to only give 'Caesar'/Govt what IS HIS TO ASK FOR...this does not mean, give caesar everything and anything he asks...its restricted to what is his to ask for, there are many laws and regulations today that are not Govts place to even ask of us, and people should not be compliant or obedient to these laws, they are giving caesar too much, in other words, things he cannot ask for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma777
I am an atheist (confirmed Protestant, but a non-believer). I've taken some mythology of religion courses in college, but have not really been all that interested in religion otherwise.
What is interesting is that I had sort of a philosophical discussion today with a woman I know who is also a Jehovah's Witness. They do not 'take sides' so they do not vote. Apparently Putin has been taking away land from the Jehovah's Witness church in Russia for the State (i.e. Putin). I was curious as to why they do not fight back. I was also curious what they would do if Hitler appeared on the scene--would they take a side or just submit? She said submit because they obey "Caesar's Law" until they cannot, and then they obey God's Law (the Bible, etc.).
I had never heard the term "Casesar's Law" before, so when you mention it, I'm just curious--is this a common religious term used in all religions that I somehow have never heard before? After speaking to her, I thought it was specific to her religion, so seeing it here was kind of weird (twice in the same day?).
Bible is full of instructions to obey earthly authorities and slaves their masters. Should give you thought on who started the whole thing...
The significance here is where Jesus was at the time he said to Render unto Caesar. He was in the temple chasing out the money changers from the house of worship. Why that is significant is because when we are buying and selling, we are collecting taxes; same now as it was then.
And I'm thinking, (don't know for sure) that is how Thomas Jefferson (follower of Jesus Christ's humanitarian philosophy) came up with the separation of church and state, the letter to the Baptist Church, not the Constitution in that the Supreme Court used so as to determine their decision.
Not only is the Bible full of instructions on how to obey earthly authorities, it is also full of instructions on how to 'separate' the two in one's life, because if one renders all to Caesar (government) one ceases to exist if not for Caesar (government). And where is the liberty in that?
Simple yes or no question. You hear this a lot from Trump supporters; that we are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values and our Constitution is based on the Bible. Do you believe this to be the case?
I think it is indisputable that American law is indirectly influenced by the Bible like all of Western society. However, it is officially secular. The Greek Bible is a cornerstone text of Western civilization.
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I think it is indisputable that American law is indirectly influenced by the Bible like all of Western society. However, it is officially secular. The Greek Bible is a cornerstone text of Western civilization.
Democracy from the Past to the Future
"Searching for models for the new government they were creating, America's Founding Fathers studied both the democracy of Athens and the republic of Rome, but they favored the latter. In The Federalist essays, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay argued that Athenian democracy was unstable. They thought Athens was too easily ruled by group passion, rather than reason:
Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob. (The Federalist, No. LIV; by Alexander Hamilton or James Madison)"
The problem is that is it not a simple yes or no. This is a logical fallacy called "false dichotomy."
The Bible is absolutely one of the cornerstones of western civilization, yes. You cannot speak of anything in western civilization without understanding it. Anyone who does not know this is not qualified to discuss the matter.
There is also classical cvilization, the reformation, the enlightment, the scientific method, etc. Not all of these directly bear on law, but you get the point. Western civilization, western law, and thus, American law are all influenced by Judeo-Christian principles.
Bingo. I believe the Bible is partly the basis for American law. Since Christianity is the most common religion here, lawyers and judges cannot help but be influenced by their beliefs. They are people, not robots, and no matter how much they might try to be objective, they will consider their background when making decisions. this includes their religious background.
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How about some examples, outside of state/city blue laws, to show that? Some concept that only has an origin in the Bible.
THE U. S. BILL OF RIGHTS
And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17
I asked my daughter once who is atheist if she thought the u.s. was founded on Christian principles and she said yes. I asked why would she think that? She responded, because there isn't a document in the history of this country that hasn't God in it.
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
"What exactly does this article mean? First, let's look at two of the key terms used in the passage. The first word you may not recognize is Musselmen. In 1796, this was a word used to describe a Muslim person, or a follower of the religion Islam. Mehomitan describes a follower of the prophet Muhammad. According to Article 11, the United States, as a country without a state-backed religion has no problem with the Barbary States as a result of their Muslim faith."
____________
And you know this is all well and good, but imo, it doesn't matter what this country was so much as it matters today, what this country is and what it stands for, today. Today, marks the future of this country, the strength and its weakness will be determined by what and how we value our lives today, that, will sustain us a future.
Many of the founding fathers were Gnostics/Hermetics if anything and our founding docs draw heavily from there, which is not Biblical. Jefferson’s rewritten Bible removing all the miracles would be considered blasphemous.
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The notion of liberty has Greek origins.
Many of the founding fathers were Gnostics/Hermetics if anything and our founding docs draw heavily from there, which is not Biblical. Jefferson’s rewritten Bible removing all the miracles would be considered blasphemous.
Blasphemous is being disrespectful about God or sacred things and while it is true that the Jefferson's Bible might be considered being that of disrespectful to some people, it isn't something he would be tried in a court of law over. At least not in the time frame in which he was alive and well, but perhaps if the time had been 500 a.d or older, he may have been tried on charges of blasphemy. People evolve, that's what we do, even in our religious leanings. One thing that is for sure, Jefferson had great respect for Jesus Christ, not so much for Christianity as an organized religion.
Quote:
The notion of liberty has Greek origins.
Economic liberty, social liberty or both ... people have their own ideas about everything, including what liberty aka freedom, means to them. I'm not seeing the pattern of ideas for the u.s. Constitutional Republic, evolving from the ancient Greek democracy. While they may have admired the ancient Greeks they also feared the consequences of a direct democracy. James Madison wrote in Federalist 55, “In all very numerous assemblies, of whatever characters composed, passion never fails to wrest the scepter from reason.”
French social philosopher, Benjamin Constant (1767-1830)
"He said that among the ancient Greeks, such as in the city-state of Athens, “freedom” was understood to mean the right of the free citizen to participate in the political deliberations of city affairs, including speaking, debating, and voting. But once the deliberations were over and a vote was taken, the individual was a “slave” to the majority decisions of his fellow citizens.
<snip>
Now, he said, the idea of freedom was the right of the individual to be left alone. The individual was at liberty to guide his own life, choose his own goals, and pursue any ambitions and career that he might want. He could form any interpersonal associations he chose, or could follow his own way by himself."
________
Quote:
founding fathers were Gnostics/Hermetics
You will have to show me something that supports that claim, because I'm not seeing the Egyptian influence in those that came here from Britain. Protestants (and their influence) arrived in the time of the u.s. founding with the idea that a person should let their conscience lead their lives; in the decisions they make. In the time of the u.s humble beginning, the Church of England, had great power.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 10-19-2018 at 08:09 PM..
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