Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You are talking contract terms. Of course a union might drive such a clause as the standard pragmatic view would provide no such protection.
But without such a clause no employee would have such protection.
I'm talking 'innocent until proven guilty.' Some posters here have suggested that it applies only to a criminal trial, but clearly there are multiple other contexts where it applies.
edit: update on the poll. 112 (97.32%) voted 'keep it as it has been.' 3 (2.68%) chose an alternative.
I'm talking 'innocent until proven guilty.' Some posters here have suggested that it applies only to a criminal trial, but clearly there are multiple other contexts where it applies.
edit: update on the poll. 112 (97.32%) voted 'keep it as it has been.' 3 (2.68%) chose an alternative.
Sorry it has no widespread applicability unless specifically agreed to in some situation such as a union contract. Civil matters do not use it as a principle in deciding cases. Look at the recent cases in say Google where people have been fired or forced to retire. No where is it alleged "innocent until proven guilty". Simple decision that the charger was credible.
Should 'innocent until proven guilty' be discarded as a bedrock American principle?
It should remain as is, BUT - it should be practiced in all cases! Way to many times in these last few years the media/society have branded somebody guilty from the get go. It's the popular thing to do to get revenge on those that believe differently than you. Sad !
Sorry it has no widespread applicability unless specifically agreed to in some situation such as a union contract. Civil matters do not use it as a principle in deciding cases. Look at the recent cases in say Google where people have been fired or forced to retire. No where is it alleged "innocent until proven guilty". Simple decision that the charger was credible.
Agreed, it is self-evident that if not agreed to prior, it is going to be tough to enforce unless by appeal to fairness. Good luck with that--it didn't work for Kavanaugh.
Google, as far as I know, is 100% non-union. They are at-will employees who can be fired at any time. If they believe they were wronged they can get a lawyer and sue for wrongful dismissal, but the odds of success are low.
'Innocent until proven guilty' has widespread applicability in the sense of being a principle of fairness and logic. Which is why I predict Democrats (I am one) are going to suffer badly in Senate races next week after having jettisoned it.
Agreed, it is self-evident that if not agreed to prior, it is going to be tough to enforce unless by appeal to fairness. Good luck with that--it didn't work for Kavanaugh.
Google, as far as I know, is 100% non-union. They are at-will employees who can be fired at any time. If they believe they were wronged they can get a lawyer and sue for wrongful dismissal, but the odds of success are low.
'Innocent until proven guilty' has widespread applicability in the sense of being a principle of fairness and logic. Which is why I predict Democrats (I am one) are going to suffer badly in Senate races next week after having jettisoned it.
Nothing fair or logical about it. Simple dispute between 2 people. In fairness you determine which is more credible. And it may be a very narrow decision. And way short of the level you would need for a criminal conviction.
If memory serves, in France one is guilty until they are proven innocent. It would be easy enough for the curious to move to France, wait to be arrested for something, and tell us how it went.
No need to experiment here until we are in possession of that data.
I did hear that French prisons are particularly harsh. Bon chance!
Civil matters do not use it as a principle in deciding cases.
Oh, yes, they do. You are innocent until proven otherwise. The threshold in civil law is less than criminal law, since it only requires a preponderance of evidence, instead of beyond a reasonable doubt, but you are still innocent until proven at fault in a tort, or the breaching party in a contract dispute where there was a material breach.
It applies to all forms of administrative law, including alternative dispute resolution like arbitration, disciplinary hearings at public and private universities and all other government hearings, like having your driver's license reinstated, or liquor license reinstated or professional license reinstated or Social Security Disability benefits restored.
The only time that would not be true, is if you already had a court issue a verdict of fact on the matter.
A decision in an administrative matter is never the complete end. You can ask a judge in a State or federal court to set aside an arbitrator's decision, or a decision from a university disciplinary board or any government administrative procedure for any number of reasons, including the fact that you were presumed guilty, and that presumption can be inferred from the actions of the administrative hearing board.
You might want to do some case law research, because there have been people who have had such actions set aside by a judge. A New York State court set aside disciplinary action at SUNY involving an alleged sexual battery, because the student was railroaded solely on hearsay evidence.
Oh, yes, they do. You are innocent until proven otherwise. The threshold in civil law is less than criminal law, since it only requires a preponderance of evidence, instead of beyond a reasonable doubt, but you are still innocent until proven at fault in a tort, or the breaching party in a contract dispute where there was a material breach.
It applies to all forms of administrative law, including alternative dispute resolution like arbitration, disciplinary hearings at public and private universities and all other government hearings, like having your driver's license reinstated, or liquor license reinstated or professional license reinstated or Social Security Disability benefits restored.
The only time that would not be true, is if you already had a court issue a verdict of fact on the matter.
A decision in an administrative matter is never the complete end. You can ask a judge in a State or federal court to set aside an arbitrator's decision, or a decision from a university disciplinary board or any government administrative procedure for any number of reasons, including the fact that you were presumed guilty, and that presumption can be inferred from the actions of the administrative hearing board.
You might want to do some case law research, because there have been people who have had such actions set aside by a judge. A New York State court set aside disciplinary action at SUNY involving an alleged sexual battery, because the student was railroaded solely on hearsay evidence.
No. Civil matters the burden is the preponderance of the evidence. 51% is sufficient.The defendant has a slight advantage in that he can remain silent . But any prima facie evidence from the plaintiff deals with that. And normally such evidence is required to bring the suit.
And the key thing is that you can well be criminally innocent while being guilty civilly. Affair Kavanaugh is a good example. There is virtually no doubt he is criminally innocent but he has been found guilty by a good portion of the senate.
No decision is ever absolutely final. Even a USSC ruling can be undone by a later USSC decision.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
