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Old 11-16-2018, 06:59 AM
 
21,401 posts, read 10,472,670 times
Reputation: 14064

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
No, I have a very strict mentality when it comes to natural consequences. Whether it's my own kids or other kids. I don't shield them from natural consequences of their own actions. Case in point: younger son refused to do his homework for an entire quarter. Teacher's punishment was to disallow him from participating in a fun day at his school. He had to sit in the library instead. Sucks, right? But he deserved it. He knew the consequences and chose what happened to him.

I'm not a helicopter mom who thinks her precious babies are immune to the consequences of others.
Real consequences of that would have been failing their classes when we were in school. That’s what real consequences are, not missing a day of fun. But I agree we should let our kids suffer consequences for their actions. I just think your consequences for these boys who hurt no one and probably thought they were joking is a little too far. I bet you would change your tune real fast if your sons suddenly found themselves the villains all over the world for a stupid decision they made that went viral, and that five-second action would be a mark against them for the rest of their lives. Every college admissions person or future potential employer could find that and vilify them for it 5,10, or even 30 years down the road. There is no forgiveness in this society anymore.
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:48 AM
 
28,164 posts, read 25,198,536 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
My analogy was of 16 or 17 year old robbers who get their records wiped clean when they reach adulthood, because we recognize that teenagers don’t often make smart or good choices in life. But here you are wishing future ruin for kids who may have thought they were being rebellious or just joking around for a second. They didn’t steal or commit violence. They raised their hand in a stupid gesture that as teenagers they probably don’t really understand. Knowing it is a Hitler salute is not the same as recognizing what Hitler really did to people.

I’m all for concentration camp survivors being invited to the school to speak in an assembly about what happened to them. That would be a lot more powerful than denying them a future and actually pushing them towards a hate group.
I'm not wishing anything. I simply said if a college rejects them based on this behavior, that is the colleges' discretion and I wouldn't be upset about it.

Again, natural consequences of stupid actions include people and institutions not wanting to be associated with you.
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Old 11-16-2018, 07:50 AM
 
28,164 posts, read 25,198,536 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
Real consequences of that would have been failing their classes when we were in school. That’s what real consequences are, not missing a day of fun. But I agree we should let our kids suffer consequences for their actions. I just think your consequences for these boys who hurt no one and probably thought they were joking is a little too far. I bet you would change your tune real fast if your sons suddenly found themselves the villains all over the world for a stupid decision they made that went viral, and that five-second action would be a mark against them for the rest of their lives. Every college admissions person or future potential employer could find that and vilify them for it 5,10, or even 30 years down the road. There is no forgiveness in this society anymore.
Well, he did get bad grades. But missing the fun day had much more of an impact. Gotta know your kids' currencies. YDS's currency is fun.

No, I would not change my tune if this were my kids. My husband and I had a talk with our kids when this came out and told them how much trouble they could get in if they pulled a stupid stunt like this. And if they got rejected from the college of their choice because they DID do something dumb like this, I'd say, "Don't say I didn't warn you."
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:09 AM
 
21,401 posts, read 10,472,670 times
Reputation: 14064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Well, he did get bad grades. But missing the fun day had much more of an impact. Gotta know your kids' currencies. YDS's currency is fun.

No, I would not change my tune if this were my kids. My husband and I had a talk with our kids when this came out and told them how much trouble they could get in if they pulled a stupid stunt like this. And if they got rejected from the college of their choice because they DID do something dumb like this, I'd say, "Don't say I didn't warn you."
I had the same talk with my kids, and I understand that colleges will look at this. I just think when someone becomes viral like this, the consequences are all out of proportion to the action. And you really have called for the worst to happen to them throughout this thread.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:14 AM
 
2,362 posts, read 769,999 times
Reputation: 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
It is a fact because it's happened. I posted several examples pages ago. I'm still waiting for you to shore up your disagreement with something concrete.
I didn't see what you posted but just because someone was denied admission doesn't make your statement a "fact". There could be several things going on, and just because someone does something doesn't make it legal. I speed all the time, if caught and the police pushes it, I pay a fine. If I'm not caught, or no police officer pushes it, I pay no fine.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,010 posts, read 27,397,816 times
Reputation: 15932
I think every one of us can agree that these people are ignorant and stupid. The salute is obviously grossly inappropriate.

This said, I wonder what would be the consequences or the punishments for these boys? After all, they are probably just 16, 17 years old.

Like it or not, admit it or not, Despite being in poor taste most people believe in free speech. Free speech by its nature is a personal opinion.

Having said that let's be clear. NOBODY is going to DEFEND these boys, because what they did is clearly very wrong.

However, If people are offended by them, they have the option of changing the law to prevent this form of free speech. Or they can choose to "scare" the department into preventing free speech to prevent needless litigation. In today's society the thought of "offending" someone can trump free speech. It is like we have become so afraid of not being politically correct we don't want due process, we only want immediate action.

Not everything is racist, sexist, or any of the other ists. Some is free speech and some is just plain old ignorance. Do we prevent freedom of expression to prevent anger, do we rush to judgment, without due process? Where is the line drawn?

If our future is judged/determined by public opinion (let's face it, public opinion is emotion) and not law, eventually, none of us will be safe.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:54 AM
 
2,362 posts, read 769,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I think every one of us can agree that these people are ignorant and stupid. The salute is obviously grossly inappropriate.
I disagree and I'm proud to state my disagreement. I don't see these boys as ignorant or stupid. Maybe the prank can be considered stupid. But smart, average and not-so-smart people do dumb things all the time.

IMO, there is nothing to punish them over. It's a friggin' hand gesture. If we start punishing people over hand gestures, or even what they feel in their heart (let's say we know these boys are closet nazis), then we entered dangerous territory. Leave them alone and get a life.
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,010 posts, read 27,397,816 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
No, I have a very strict mentality when it comes to natural consequences. Whether it's my own kids or other kids. I don't shield them from natural consequences of their own actions. Case in point: younger son refused to do his homework for an entire quarter. Teacher's punishment was to disallow him from participating in a fun day at his school. He had to sit in the library instead. Sucks, right? But he deserved it. He knew the consequences and chose what happened to him.

I'm not a helicopter mom who thinks her precious babies are immune to the consequences of others.
I don't think anybody would disagree with you, however, we are living in a realistic world, not a fantasy world. Different people are offended by different things. As long as a person has an opinion, that opinion will offend somebody.

The Nazi-type salute is pretty black, white, everybody knows it is wrong and offensive, However, there are many symbols, tattoos, hand gestures, speeches are not really black or white.

When I hear someone say that their interpretation of a symbol or speech/expression is the correct interpretation of that symbol or speech/expression, I find it merely annoying. But when such ignorant arrogance threatens a person's livelihood and career, I have to admit I get angry.

So how about this? If the boys tell you they stand for white supremacy or they wish that Hitler had succeeded or whatever, then absolutely, they need to suffer from the consequences of their action. their beliefs, will probably eventually manifest in behavior. But if they just did something grossly stupid and they learned their lesson. How about just let them be, remove the photo from social media page, and give them a chance to be successful in the future?
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,010 posts, read 27,397,816 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadicDrifter View Post
I disagree and I'm proud to state my disagreement. I don't see these boys as ignorant or stupid. Maybe the prank can be considered stupid. But smart, average and not-so-smart people do dumb things all the time.

IMO, there is nothing to punish them over. It's a friggin' hand gesture. If we start punishing people over hand gestures, or even what they feel in their heart (let's say we know these boys are closet nazis), then we entered dangerous territory. Leave them alone and get a life.
well, I do believe what they did is stupid and ignorant, but I do not believe their lives should be ruined.

Like I posted earlier,

The Nazi-type salute is pretty black, white, everybody knows it is wrong and offensive, However, there are many symbols, tattoos, hand gestures, speeches are not really black or white.

When I hear someone say that their interpretation of a symbol or speech/expression is the correct interpretation of that symbol or speech/expression, I find it merely annoying. But when such ignorant arrogance threatens a person's livelihood and career, I have to admit I get angry.

So how about this? If the boys tell you they stand for white supremacy or they wish that Hitler had succeeded or whatever, then absolutely, they need to suffer from the consequences of their action. their beliefs, will probably eventually manifest in behavior. But if they just did something grossly stupid and they learned their lesson. How about just let them be, remove the photo from social media page, and give them a chance to be successful in the future?
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:15 AM
 
2,362 posts, read 769,999 times
Reputation: 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
So how about this? If the boys tell you they stand for white supremacy or they wish that Hitler had succeeded or whatever, then absolutely, they need to suffer from the consequences of their action. their beliefs, will probably eventually manifest in behavior. But if they just did something grossly stupid and they learned their lesson. How about just let them be, remove the photo from social media page, and give them a chance to be successful in the future?
No, I fervently disagree. Being a white supremacist or hitler lover is not a crime. There should be no far sweeping consequences. Obviously, if they tell you they're a white supremacist and you don't want to be their friend because of it - so be it. But they should still be able to function in day to day society. They should still be able to find employment, go to university, etc.

It's morally wrong to punish people with the expectation "their thoughts will eventually lead to actions". First, no one knows if they will. Second, you can't punish them until the action is taken.
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