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So your viewpoint is based solely on personal anecdote?
Notice how you're willing only to commit to drive-by posts and unwilling to spell out the ways in which cooperative learning and group-based workplaces mirror each other or how group-based work in school lends itself to becoming a group-based employee? Speaks volumes.
No sir. Hattie has collected more data than anyone I've seen. Few around me were surprised when we looked at his data and saw that things like cooperative learning or discovery learning or constructivist learning were not high on the list.
And, yes, "personal anecdotes" from many teachers is good evidence. I have many colleagues who have had the same experiences. Consequently, I have seen a general move away from cooperative learning within education. This fad emerged 10-15 years ago and has run its course. Colleges are always late to the game, so it will take longer for the fad to pass at that level.
Your Hattie data doesn’t directly back the narrative you’re pushing. If anything, you’re attempting to create a false equivalency between the significance of “cooperative learning” and whether it should be attempted at all.
Have you worked at a University for the past decade? No? Have you worked in engineering management? No? Have you worked on/with engineering teams? No? Your personal anecdotes are irrelevant to this specific discussion.
Notice how you're willing only to commit to drive-by posts and unwilling to spell out the ways in which cooperative learning and group-based workplaces mirror each other or how group-based work in school lends itself to becoming a group-based employee? Speaks volumes.
As does your personal criticism.
There’s no need to spell anything out; you’re selling your opinion as fact, hence my one-liner response.
Last edited by subaru5555; 11-26-2018 at 12:52 PM..
Lack of educational curiosity and ignorance have reached our White House and surely this must give most Americans pause ( we will save greed and meanness for another day). Where does the ignorance originate? Why has it become so pervasive and a badge of honor among Trump supporters on this thread?
Can the U.S. have a meaningful place in the world and thrive and prosper as a nation without higher education? Without even basic civics and the humanities along with science and technology where would we be? To those who want to keep the citizenry of the U.S. in the dark, I ask why? That is MAGA? Please!
Can the U.S. have meaningful elections if its citizens have a paucity of civic knowledge and history that might allow them to make informed decisions? Guess not...look where we are...keep us dumb and full of conspiracy theories.
Almost 200 years ago James Madison wrote: “A government without information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy, or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives.”
The title of this thread indicates that the OP and others think education and knowledge are not necessary. They appear to be advocating that the American people eschew college, and the results are evident in the cracks appearing in the country’s democracy.
Education is not all about feelings. Which is the whole point of the OP thread.
How does "women's fashion as a political statement" or "gender bending lit from the 1200s" teach anyone anything? It doesn't. That's the point. They may as well be taking Harry Potter 101, read a few books, talk about it write a paper. But it sure makes people *feel* like they are learning something *groundbreaking* and *important.* And surely dumbs people down. Oh, the time they could've spent learning something practical and applicable ...
Higher education needs to be higher education. Not a bunch of crap classes to make 20-somethings *feel* important and *changing the world.* They need to UNDERSTAND the world before they understand what needs changing.
Education is not all about feelings. Which is the whole point of the OP thread.
How does "women's fashion as a political statement" or "gender bending lit from the 1200s" teach anyone anything? It doesn't. That's the point. They may as well be taking Harry Potter 101, read a few books, talk about it write a paper. But it sure makes people *feel* like they are learning something *groundbreaking* and *important.* And surely dumbs people down. Oh, the time they could've spent learning something practical and applicable ...
Higher education needs to be higher education. Not a bunch of crap classes to make 20-somethings *feel* important and *changing the world.* They need to UNDERSTAND the world before they understand what needs changing.
Exactly. I know a few people who have taken these useless college courses and majors, and they are appalled that employers aren't lining up to hire them. They are so delusional it's not even funny.
Among the many things that (SOME) cons can't understand is nuance and the real world. This would include the OP....let me provide an example as close to my heart as humanly possible.
My middle daughter came out of the womb "differently". She was smart as heck from the first day and by 3 years old she was telling mom (morally) what was right and what was wrong. She excelled in everything she did, usually beating out all the boys (snowboarding, schoolwork, etc.).
When it came time to college she didn't know what she wanted to be. Being a practical type myself, I told her to go to college for engineering, being as it taught methods and reasoning...what we commonly know as the real world. I told her engineers do most everything worth doing. I thought it was good advice and still do.
So she went and got her EE and CE degrees - deans list, top of the class, etc. even though she was not raised "handy" (although I am very much so)...
She took a job offer from Lucent in North NJ and went to work for 6 months with top salary and benefits. But she was too smart for that. She came to us and said "I'm not going to sit in a cubicle for the rest of my life" and took the LSATS (Law entry tests). She scored very high.
Turns out she had fallen in love with a "humanities" prof who had travelled all over the world and when in the Engineering school she was required to take a couple such classes. The Law appealed to her in a "saving the world" type of manner. So on she went to Law School (top ten) and got her degree. One summer she was paid 26K for getting wined and dined...so she was able to help us pay her tuition.
Public interest law was her game and she also decided to have a balanced life. Even though she is/was Type A to the Max, she wanted to hike, travel, snowboard AND save the world.
Well, to make a long story short - she has done it. Worked in cleaning up the water and cleaning up the air. Works for a famous public interest org - 37 hours a week low stress. Off now for 8 months parental leave with new baby. Has an IRA and other savings.
The easiest thing to do for a smart person is to make money and burn themselves out. The hardest thing to do is to lead a balanced life and have it ALL.
Education is not all about feelings. Which is the whole point of the OP thread.
How does "women's fashion as a political statement" or "gender bending lit from the 1200s" teach anyone anything? It doesn't. That's the point. They may as well be taking Harry Potter 101, read a few books, talk about it write a paper. But it sure makes people *feel* like they are learning something *groundbreaking* and *important.* And surely dumbs people down. Oh, the time they could've spent learning something practical and applicable ...
Higher education needs to be higher education. Not a bunch of crap classes to make 20-somethings *feel* important and *changing the world.* They need to UNDERSTAND the world before they understand what needs changing.
Did you go to college? The reason I ask is that most people who have wouldn't talk about "a bunch of crap classes to make 20 somethings feel important". Part of an education is learning how to think, to analyze and to question things. That seems to bother conservatives more than it does liberals. Perhaps because they are afraid that if their kids learn to question what they hear on Fox news they will no longer be reliable Republican voters.
Did you go to college? The reason I ask is that most people who have wouldn't talk about "a bunch of crap classes to make 20 somethings feel important". Part of an education is learning how to think, to analyze and to question things.
That's not really true anymore, as diversity of thought/opinion is squelched on college campuses throughout the US. One must now have the "correct" mindset. What colleges are teaching now is groupthink. Those who choose to question/challenge the prescribed groupthink are punished.
Groupthink caused the space shuttle disaster, now it's causing a societal disaster.
That's not really true anymore, as diversity of thought/opinion is squelched on college campuses throughout the US. One must now have the "correct" mindset. What colleges are teaching now is groupthink. Those who choose to question/challenge the prescribed groupthink are punished.
Groupthink caused the space shuttle disaster, now it's causing a societal disaster.
I agree that groupthink caused the Challenger disaster. This was due to a relatively small group of engineers working on the project and agreeing to project changes based on the consensus of the group. How can you compare that to diversity of thought/opinion on college campuses throughout the US? I've taken classes at six colleges in two states, granted a relatively small sample of the more than 4,000 2-year and 4-year colleges and universities in the US. I have had professors who were liberal, conservative, and just plain weird. But for the majority, I had no idea what their political bias was. It was not relevant to the course. Even when it was relevant, most make every attempt to keep it hidden. Even if a professor was preaching his/her political opinions, it was still only one professor in a single class. I never encountered a department or college where everyone had the same political leanings. I'm sure a few exist, at least at the department level.
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