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Old 01-03-2019, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,375,756 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
For most people a tax is a tax on labor no matter what you call it. You can't pay it otherwise. Pay a sales tax it still comes out of your labor so I'm not interested in this kind of argument.



If you want to argue that we are taxed too much, you can make a valid argument there but that hasn't been the argument.
Paying sales taxes is a choice. Property taxes you must pay even without any financial income.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:41 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 43,935,929 times
Reputation: 17189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Paying sales taxes is a choice. Property taxes you must pay even without any financial income.
Technically property tax is a choice also. You don't have to own property.

I'm not arguing that a tax should be collected on this or on that. Doesn't matter to me. My argument is that a society will have a tax to pay for things society wants and society isn't going to go backwards.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Madison, WI
5,295 posts, read 2,335,062 times
Reputation: 1227
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
You haven't read this thread? We get the reply that "Taxes are theft" and when I ask for an explanation how things would work without them the only reply is "you are a slave".
What do you mean when you say "work"? I think that's pretty subjective.

All the state adds to the equation is forcing people to pay for things they don't want to pay for. If they want it, they'll choose to pay for it without being forced to. The thing is, everyone wants to tell other people what to do and how to spend their money, because they're afraid others won't make the choice THEY want them to make.

I think of some guy who likes arranged marriage, and he argues that "it just wouldn't work" to let girls choose for themselves, because they'll make stupid choices and go for guys who are bad for them, won't stick around, abuse them, etc.... which is true a lot of the time, and is bad for society. Point is, it's their life and their choice.

Speaking to all people here: If you think something is so important that society can't exist without it, but others disagree with you, you have no right to force them to fund it. You could even be right, but that still doesn't justify it.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,375,756 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Technically property tax is a choice also. You don't have to own property.

I'm not arguing that a tax should be collected on this or on that. Doesn't matter to me. My argument is that a society will have a tax to pay for things society wants and society isn't going to go backwards.
That’s not the only role taxes play. Taxes like property taxes (as well as other private industry tools) forms a society where people need to make money and add to the economy. If a significant portion of the population lived on their own land and grew their own food, corporate and state power would collapse as well as the funding needed to uphold these institutions.

People in our system need to own property to have shelter (or pay rent to the person who owns it). Homeless shelters are horrible, offer little freedom, and you can only stay for a certain duration.

Living in public areas outside and making a homeless economy is stopped by bad weather or in the case of California, they’re cleared out sooner or later by the police.

Poverty is made to be miserable, even though that wasn’t always the case. The Amish are an exception, but even they have to sell goods on the market to provide for themselves.

My point is if you live on land, you’ll need money to pay someone some way. Property taxes aren’t just meant to bring in government revenue, but also to guarantee people get wage jobs and participate in the corporate economy (public or private industry).
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:00 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 43,935,929 times
Reputation: 17189
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E View Post
What do you mean when you say "work"? I think that's pretty subjective.

All the state adds to the equation is forcing people to pay for things they don't want to pay for. If they want it, they'll choose to pay for it without being forced to.
Tell me, how would we pay for the Interstate Road system? Many would be willing to use it without paying for it if it's voluntary.

Please, explain it to me.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:03 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 43,935,929 times
Reputation: 17189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
That’s not the only role taxes play. Taxes like property taxes (as well as other private industry tools) forms a society where people need to make money and add to the economy. If a significant portion of the population lived on their own land and grew their own food, corporate and state power would collapse as well as the funding needed to uphold these institutions.

People in our system need to own property to have shelter (or pay rent to the person who owns it). Homeless shelters are horrible, offer little freedom, and you can only stay for a certain duration.

Living in public areas outside and making a homeless economy is stopped by bad weather or in the case of California, they’re cleared out sooner or later by the police.

Poverty is made to be miserable, even though that wasn’t always the case. The Amish are an exception, but even they have to sell goods on the market to provide for themselves.

My point is if you live on land, you’ll need money to pay someone some way. Property taxes aren’t just meant to bring in government revenue, but also to guarantee people get wage jobs and participate in the corporate economy (public or private industry).
Yes, these discussions are bigger and would expand if you could get someone to explain what they want even in the simplest terms.

Many (not all) things people complain about paying for, benefit them in big ways even if they do not want to acknowledge it.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:14 PM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,880,928 times
Reputation: 3461
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Theories are just that.
Absolutists &/or ideologues have little to no use for reality-based or scientific method-based theories:

Quote:
“… a philosophy is influenced by facts. So there is a constant interplay between what do I think and why do I think it….Now, if you gather more facts and have more experience, especially with things that have gone wrong – those are especially good learning tools – then you reshape your philosophy because the facts tell you you’ve got to… Ideology is a lot easier, because you don’t have to know anything or search for anything. You already know the answer to everything. It’s not penetrable by facts. It’s absolutism.”
~ Paul O’Neill, quoted by Ron Suskind, The Price of Loyalty, 2004

Thomas Sowell’s Ideology – a critique

https://blueridgeleader.com/thomas-s...gy-a-critique/

& the following is not a riddle:

What Do Libertarians Really Want?

The same things they've always wanted:

From Mr. Sanders' site: 1980 Libertarian Party platform:
  • "We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.”
  • “We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”
  • “We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”
  • “We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”
  • “We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social e. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.”
  • “We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”
  • “We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”
  • “We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”
  • “We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”
  • “We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”
  • “We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”
  • “We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”
  • “We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”
  • “We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”
  • “We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”
  • “We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.”
  • “We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”
  • “We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”
  • “We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”
  • “We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:17 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 43,935,929 times
Reputation: 17189
I'm not going to quote the entire post above but that is a better answer than stating some theory.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:19 PM
 
Location: North Pacific
15,646 posts, read 7,495,567 times
Reputation: 2567
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
For most people a tax is a tax on labor no matter what you call it. You can't pay it otherwise. Pay a sales tax it still comes out of your labor so I'm not interested in this kind of argument.



If you want to argue that we are taxed too much, you can make a valid argument there but that hasn't been the argument.
Quote:
Pay a sales tax it still comes out of your labor
You're right:
"The criticisms that Frederick Douglass expresses of his masters are perfectly interchangeable with all the criticisms of the government. Heed his words. Douglass was 100% a slave at times, 99% a slave at other times, and even at a point 50% a slave, according to how much of his labor was confiscated." Why Taxation is Slavery: Words From Frederick Douglass


The government could pay its debt by import and export taxation and eliminate sales tax ... however the argument still comes down to some one's labor.
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Old 01-03-2019, 07:23 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 43,935,929 times
Reputation: 17189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
You're right:
"The criticisms that Frederick Douglass expresses of his masters are perfectly interchangeable with all the criticisms of the government. Heed his words. Douglass was 100% a slave at times, 99% a slave at other times, and even at a point 50% a slave, according to how much of his labor was confiscated." Why Taxation is Slavery: Words From Frederick Douglass


The government could pay its debt by import and export taxation and eliminate sales tax ... however the argument still comes down to some one's labor.
If there was an import tax, the item you purchase costs more so you are still paying a tax with your labor. You have to pay for the things you use.
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